AWARE II Final Publication – speculation does not imply association
[and finally the answer to my 3.5 year old vital question!]
Firstly, congratulations to Dr Sam Parnia and the team of researchers who conducted this awesome study which is the first study ever to find biomarkers of consciousness during CPR in the absence of heartbeat. Let me repeat that because it is a huge achievement. This is the first study to ever find markers of consciousness during CPR. I can just see the materialists entering a wild feeding frenzy, their eyes rolling back in ecstasy as they chew on this headline, but what they might think is raw fillet may turn out to be TOFU (no offence to vegans – just a matophor).
This is a pre-proof, rather than a pre-print (which was put out there earlier in the year). That means it is only a proofread away from full publication rather than a serious review and edit. This is for all intents and purposes the final publication that will appear in Resuscitation. The link is below:
Essentially the results are not much different from those presented at AHA last November, and in the pre-print mentioned above and found in my summary in the following link, WITH ONE VERY BIG EXCEPTION.
Before I draw your attention to the exception which answers the question I sent to the Parnia lab in January 2020, I will just remind you all of the key findings:
- The study finished recruiting from 25 sites, predominantly located in the UK or US, in March 2020 (at least for this analysis – is it the final analysis? They are still recruiting according to NYU website).
- The key findings are summarized as follows and all the quotations are from the citation beneath:
Of 567 IHCA, 53(9.3%) survived, 28 of these (52.8%) completed interviews, and 11(39.3%) reported CA memories/perceptions suggestive of consciousness. Four categories of experiences emerged: 1) emergence from coma during CPR (CPR-induced consciousness [CPRIC]) 2/28(7.1%), or 2) in the post-resuscitation period 2/28(7.1%), 3) dream-like experiences 3/28(10.7%), 4) transcendent recalled experience of death (RED 6/28(21.4%)…. Low survival limited the ability to examine for implicit learning. Nobody identified the visual image, 1/28(3.5%) identified the auditory stimulus. Despite marked cerebral ischemia (Mean rSO2=43%) normal EEG activity (delta, theta and alpha) consistent with consciousness emerged as long as 35-60 minutes into CPR.
S. Parnia, T. Keshavarz Shirazi, J. Patel, L. Tran, N. Sinha, C. O’Neill, E. Roellke, A. Mengotto, S. Findlay, M. McBrine, R. Spiegel, T. Tarpey, E. Huppert, I. Jaffe, A.M. Gonzales, J. Xu, E. Koopman, G.D. Perkins, A. Vuylsteke, B.M. Bloom, H. Jarman, H. Nam Tong, L. Chan, M. Lyaker, M. Thomas, V. Velchev, C.B. Cairns, R. Sharm, E. Kulstad, E. Scherer, T. O’Keeffe, M. Foroozesh, O. Abe, C. Ogedegbe, A.Girgis, D. Pradhan, C.D. Deakin, AWAreness during REsuscitation – II: A Multi-Center Study of Consciousnessand Awareness in Cardiac Arrest, Resuscitation (2023), doi: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.resuscitation.2023.109903
- Key points on the target methodology:
The headphones were placed over the ears during CPR. One minute after being switched on, the tablet randomly projected one of 10 stored images onto its screen, and after five minutes (derived from implicit learning protocols during anesthesia) 6-10 audio cues (three fruits: apple-pear banana) were delivered to the headphones every minute for five minutes.
Parnia et al Resuscitation (2023)
- One person identified the fruit (audio recall). Another had visual recollections of the ER scene, but could also feel things, so possibly CPRIC.
Key comment from discussion:
This is the first report of biomarkers of consciousness during CA/CPR.
Parnia et al Resuscitation (2023)
And:
Recent reports of a surge of gamma and other physiological electrical activity (ordinarily seen with lucid consciousness) during and after cardiac standstill and death, led to speculation that biomarker(s) of lucidity at death may exist [rat study and coma patients], which our findings support. Taken together, these studies and ours provide a novel understanding of how lucid experiences in relation to cardiac standstill/death may arise […] However, the paradoxical finding of lucidity and heightened reality when brain function is severely disordered, or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory [materialist].
Parnia et al Resuscitation (2023)
I don’t include anything from the data collected from subjects who were not part of the AWARE II clinical protocol, and who sent their subjective reports of NDEs to the lab. I don’t believe it belongs in this paper and potentially dilutes its very real scientific merit and is ultimately largely irrelevant to the key findings. [If anyone from the lab is reading this, I know that sounds snotty, it is just my subjective view, not intended as a criticism]
So there we have it, in conclusion:
- Due to the difficulties in recruiting only 28 patients were interviewed
- Of these 6 had NDEs (or REDs)
- The study didn’t have any visual hits (unsurprising given only 6 had NDEs)
- The audio hit was inconclusive
- EEG data “consistent with consciousness” was recorded in patients up to 60 minutes after CA began (although the majority of this EEG activity would not in fact be consistent with lucid consciousness)
So now for the big piece of news, probably the most important piece of data (for us here at least) that he presents, which is buried in the text underneath Figure 1 and the answer to the question I have been asking for 3.5 years and is the most relevant to this study – namely, did any of the patients who had NDEs/REDs have EEG data consistent with consciousness?
I had already guessed that there would be no data due to the difficulty in getting in interpretable EEG results, and I was right:
“Two of 28 interviewed subjects had EEG data, but weren’t among those with explicit cognitive recall”
Parnia et al Resuscitation (2023)
This is the money line. This is the one that shoots down any materialist attempts to use this study to say that NDEs are proven to be a result of brain activity (and there will be lots of attempts).
This is also where I dispute some elements of the discussion, particularly the “as an association doesn’t imply causation” statement, which I would normally agree with, but in this instance THERE IS NO ASSOCIATION. NONE. NADA. ZERO.
None of the subjects who reported conscious recollections, including the 6 who had NDEs had any EEG data, let alone EEG data that showed markers of consciousness. Let me repeat, because of this it is entirely false to say there is an association of brain activity with NDEs. This is no different from the findings from the rat studies or the coma patient studies. Speculation does not imply association!
FROM THIS STUDY AND ALL PREVIOUS STUDIES THERE ARE NO REPORTED NDEs THAT HAVE ANY EEG DATA, LET ALONE DATA SHOWING BRAIN ACTIVITY, ASSOCIATED WITH THESE REPORTS.
This means that we are back to square one. Despite the valiant efforts of Parnia and his team, we are no closer to having scientific evidence supporting any understanding of the cause of NDEs or the nature of consciousness. To say otherwise, especially without association, is pure speculation.
Look forward to the discussion, make sure you come back and check the comments.
Finally, I have had to pay for this paper and the upkeep of this blog, so would appreciate a tip if you have benefitted from reading this and not tipped before (or feel free to tip again if you are rich/and or generous 😊 )
AwareofAware 
So, if I understand, they found that there is no correlation about high electrical activity in the brain with NDE?
LikeLike
Sort of correct. They had no EEG data for patients who had NDE, so correlation, association of any sort is not possible.
LikeLike
But how did they make sure the NDE was during the cardiac arrest during the absence of EEG data? And not just before or just after?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good question. Since there is no way to establish the time of the NDE, it could have been before or after.
LikeLike
im confused – does it mean they didn’t have the data because none was present OR they didn’t have EEG data because they didn’t have the opportunity to connect the patients to the EEG machine?
LikeLike
Really important question. They didn’t have the data because they either weren’t able to connect the EEG or because the data from the EEG was uninterpretable, whatever that means. Either way there is no data for these patients.
LikeLike
Uninterpretable. I don’t know much about EEG but I know that uninterpretable EEG readings shouldn’t account for the reports that those individuals had. I wish he went into that more.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I just think they weren’t able to get the leads connected properly due to the circumstances of the subject.
LikeLike
looking at the paper, it seems he didn’t have EEG data because it was difficult to collect/apply the instrumentation. He states for most this was the case. Thus we really don’t have anything new here. Certainly seems like he had a difficult task at the outset, but kudos for giving it a try. I think the Deep Hypothermic Circulatory Arrest is really the way to go (and he suggests this in the paper).
The one good thing for me personally was that I felt he was swaying to the materialist side given he referenced the EEG studies, and biomarkers of consciousness. To me it appeared that these biomarkers are evidence that the brain is becoming active during CA and that is evidence to suggest these NDE accounts are brain based. But reading this study it seems he’s hypothesizing that these biomarkers are neuronal activity as a side effect of the brain shutting the inhibitory processes in the brain, granting access to a greater expanse of consciousness. To me it points to the fact that he is strongly compelled by the anecdotal accounts and veridical OBEs to push the envelop on explaining this unusual brain activity IMO.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi everyone. I’ve a question. I’ve red that there was a sound hit (someone identified a fruit). Was It related ti an NDE (or RED as they call them)?
LikeLike
The auditory “hit” was very inconclusive, and hard to call a hit. There were no incidences of explicit recall of sounds…i.e. no one said they heard the word banana, however there was an example from the interviews of implicit recall where they were asked something along the lines of whether they had any fruit like ideations (sounds comical, but not sure how the question would be asked). In this instance while they couldn’t remember anyone saying the a fruit word, they have a memory of fruit! Like I said, not much you can read from this.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I assume the audio possible had no EEG because no one who reported one had an EEG.I thought the audio hit in 1 was better. There was a recent article about the differences between the public and actual results of CPR. This again shows them as poor. It’s lucky they found the first and even this audio.
Thanks Ben
LikeLiked by 1 person
However, the paradoxical finding of lucidity and heightened reality when brain function is severely disordered, or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory [materialist].
Parnia et al Resuscitation (2023)
That’s a pretty powerful passage
LikeLiked by 1 person
Indeed. He throws a bone to dualists as well as to materialists in his discussion.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think, Ben, that in this quote Parnia is clearly saying that the epiphenomenon (materialistic) hypothesis is insufficient to explain NDEs. The point, I think, is that if Parnia is talking about paradoxical lucidity and heightened or augmented reality it is because he must have some evidence for it…so there can be no room for a materialistic interpretation of NDEs.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think that is stretching it. This is the actual quote: “However, the paradoxical finding of lucidity and heightened reality when brain function is severely disordered, or has ceased raises the need to consider alternatives to the epiphenomenon theory.’
Where is the evidence from this study that these experiences occurred during a period when brain function was severely disordered of non-existent? This relates to Bas’ question about how do they know when the the NDE occurred. Now, all these patients had a period of time in which they were in CA and CPR was being conducted, but without correlating EEG data it is impossible to say whether the recollections were during this period.
We can’t have our cake and eat it (oh no, not that again!). In other words we can’t thumb our noses at the materialists and say that because there was no EEG data they can’t say that NDEs are due to brain activity, and at the same time say that NDEs were not a result of brain activity (from this study at least). The data from this study provides no evidence on the source or nature of the experience since there is no EEG data either way for those who had the experience.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pero se supone que Parnia debe evitar especular, entiendo yo.
LikeLike
He acknowledges both possibilities (epiphenomenon AND has he put it a “separate undiscovered entity” which the later he states shouldn’t be ruled out.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Correct, which is all you can do with this data.
LikeLike
La respuesta a Bas ya la dio Parnia en el Bigelow
LikeLike
I agree that other data strongly supports, if not proves the fact that NDEs occur during CA. However, that cannot be concluded from this study with the data provided. So while Parnia is correct to say what he does, it is not consistent with the data he presents in this paper, and he doesn’t make that clear. I know I am nitpicking, but I do that for a living, so can’t help myself!
Ultimately nothing has changed for me. The reports of NDEs and veridical OBEs by reliable NDErs and corroborated by attending HCPs, especially in the context of studies looking at the phenomenon, provides a huge burden of evidence supporting Parnia’s statement and our understanding that NDEs are a result of the consciousness leaving the body. However, there is nothing in this study to support (or refute) that despite the very best efforts of the team.
LikeLike
I agree that the Aware II study was very poor, I am referring to the Aware II study itself…The fact that it needed to include corroborations from a cross-sectional study obtained from the NDERF confirms that the study could not contribute much.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t want to call the study poor, but the results are. They tried their hardest to get this right. The additional constraints of getting the equipment to the ER meant that very few patients were recruited into the study. I do think the results from the subjects not included in the clinical protocol are fairly pointless, and should have been discussed in a separate paper. To me it feels like Parnia has given up on this and put all his eggs in the HCA study, but given the mixed results from previous studies in this area, I am not sure that is wise. I used to think this made sense, but a recent paper I reviewed showed no conscious recollections at all…contrary to the Beauregard study. We will see, but I doubt we will see anything emerge in the near future, but I pray every day for a scientifically verified hit! God owes us at least one I think 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Ben, perhaps there were no conscious recollections from the HCA studies because of medication used to reawaken the patients (it wipes their memories), no?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Possibly. There were differences in methodology between the two key studies.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Did the Beauregard study incorporate anaesthesia?
I know Manduit did
LikeLike
Yeah NDEs do occur during CA which again is the elephant in the room. Why is it an experience exists if all organs including the brain are shut down due to absence of blood flow. The patient is dead. No activity. So why is it they are experiencing something? You can’t really say it’s the brain if the brain isn’t functioning same with the heart. Blood flow is required for proper organ function.
LikeLiked by 1 person
We have identified plenty of single and multicellular organisms that don’t contain any neurons which could fire, but which still seem to act intelligently, some move around, interact, eat, have sex. All of these organisms are thin, flat, or tiny, and contain highly conserved, helix-like, cylindrical protein structures. There is very little distance between these cylindrical structures, and the outer surface of the organism. These cylindrical structures are therefore very well exposed to the external environment.
It’s only when organisms become larger, that neurons seem to appear, to carry sensory data from the external environment deeper into the organism, to dense agglomerations of these cylindrical structures (brains). It seems that animals initially evolved without neurons, some of these animals still exist today. Neurons, that is firing neurons that we measure with EEG, clearly are not a requirement for animal life. I speculate that these cylindrical structures in the human brain, can continue to process information in an energy starved state of reduced neuronal firing, just like their neuron-less ancestors do today.
Secondly, medical EEG is *hugely* limited, if you research what EEG is measuring (and therefore what it’s not), there are huge gaps you could drive lorry loads of data through. For anyone interested here’s a link to a brief primer that might get you started:
https://www.slideserve.com/corby/what-are-we-measuring-with-eeg-and-meg
Finally, on the same subject, another opinion…
LikeLiked by 1 person
More research is clearly needed
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes. Because of the main issue. NDEs occur DURING cardiac arrest. A period where there isn’t brain activity due to lack of blood flow to the brain. We can’t help but realize that there are other factors at play. What they are though is simply not known. But to say it’s strictly the brain doing this is very close minded at this point.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m happy to know there was no link between EEG and the NDEs reported. I consider this a win, though had hoped to see more from the study. But most of us called it in advance that this would like not yield high results. So not surprising
LikeLiked by 1 person
It could have been worse. An NDE, but no hit, and some random EEG would have been a win for the materialists, but still would have said nothing about the origin of NDEs…would have been much easier to claim the case of brain activity being the cause though.
LikeLike
Do you think it’s plausible that Sam Parnia has put forth the hypothesis that near-death experiences are associated with EEG activity, even without having supporting data for it, although this hypothesis doesn’t truly reflect his thoughts, in order to avoid repercussions on his academic credibility, considering that most academics are physicalists?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think you are spot on Alex. Unfortunate, but this is what Parnia has been likely doing in my view. Though the long term benefit is it makes it harder for the militant materialists to attack his work and his credibility when he has findings supporting dualism – so maybe that has been his thinking in this as to why he has done things the way he has?
LikeLiked by 1 person
He has to maintain a position that is consistent with the science, and which shows that he is open to all outcomes. Unlike some materialists he does not state with certainty that either hypothesis (materialist or dualist) is proven, rather he suggests that the data from this could support the materialist explanation…although as I point out in my main post, it most certainly does not. He does need to maintain credibility, and be shown to be as impartial as possible, especially if one day he does get a hit. On that day we can point to all these studies and his discussions which are more than balanced, and say that he is not biased. That is incredibly important.
LikeLike
I understand that Ben and mostly agree with you, but it has more to do with what he was giving us with the pre-print a few months back which was causing unnecessary angst among some of us. And then that is what led to so much confusion and guessing what he had meant and resulted in so many comments on this blog.
But I think Tony above has stated it very well (his comment of July 12, 2023 at 12:00 am).
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes. There has been a disturbing lack of transparency for this tiny piece of data that has so much meaning.
LikeLike
Although there is still no correlation between near-death experiences and brain activity, the fact that this brain activity occurs up to an hour after clinical death means to me that it is quite likely that this connection will be discovered in the future, unfortunately it will not be in this study probably
This topic has not advanced for a long time and may continue like this for decades
LikeLiked by 1 person
The electrical activity detected is a consequence of CPR and cannot be separated from a supposed electrical activity resulting from the natural process of brain shutdown, in this study by Parnia.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I completely disagree. I have some thoughts about the design of the study. Frankly most OBEs seem to occur very shortly after CA commences, often long before CPR starts. In this study it appears that the crash cart turned up 5 minutes after CA.
LikeLike
Hi ben , new to checking out this blog . Who did you disagree with ? Eduardo or anthony ? Doesn’t show who you exactly replied to . Or if it did im horrible at this stuff .
Love the blogs and love reading the discussions .
LikeLike
Hi Annonlife. Not sure now! I was typing quickly after a long day discussing a very complex research idea with some professors at Cambridge university, so my brain was fried!
LikeLike
Considering the fact no NDE reporter was able to describe events from his resuscitation, then we can easily postulate these experiences occured before the brain shut down or just after it recovered.
LikeLike
Check out the Pam Reynolds case as well as AL Sullivan. The university of Virginia division of perceptual studies is a good place to start
LikeLike
If the below video was made after the data from Aware 2 was collected/analyzed, then it shows all you need to do is find a media outlet/blog/podcast open to continuation of consciousness to understand Parnia’s view. This was 7 months ago – where he discusses the “separate undiscovered scientific entity”.
The use of the word scientific of course shows his desire to make this a scientific endeavor. Worthy of study.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I saw this video as well. It was recorded after the AWARE2 data was collected and analyzed. It appears that Sam Parnia’s position after AWARE2 is something like this:
1. We did find brainwaves up to an hour into CPR
2. The brainwaves that were found sometimes appeared to be similar to those witnesses during conscious states
3. Brainwaves or not, the brain is being starved of oxygen. How are we witnessing these readings when current neuroscience tells us the brain requires a very specific set of variables to “generate” consciousness?
4. The experiences reported are consistently the most meaningful and loving experiences of these peoples lives and follow a consistent pattern.
5. All data considered, both from EEG and experiential, leads him to consider that consciousness may not be generated by the brain. As was posted on their Instagram page “are the brainwaves creating the Near Death Experience, or is the Near Death Experience creating the brainwaves?”
LikeLiked by 1 person
That appears to be where we are at on. This we don’t know for sure from the scientific data, but other data strongly supports the understanding that NDEs are real.
LikeLike
Is the study going to carry on trying to get hits, or has all the equipment now been removed, and the study completely ended for good.
LikeLike
Is there any other research going on. After all this time it’s like a penalty shoot out with no winner.
LikeLike
I am not aware of any studies going to the lengths that AWARE II is going to verify OBEs. There are a couple of observational studies listed in clinicaltrials.gov, but nothing like Parnia’s study.
LikeLike
Hi Ron,
These are the active academic collaborative studies that the Parnia lab is currently undertaking according to its website, so I believe they are containing with AWARE II, although the paper doesn’t not say this:
institutional collaborations:
AWARE II (AWAreness during REsuscitation)
A Pilot Study Examining Conscious Awareness and Cognitive Experiences During Deep Hypothermic Circulatory Arrest
A Mixed Methods Study of the Experiences and Psychological Consequences of Adult Cardiac Arrest
Children’s Awareness and Long-Term Quality of Life: A Mixed Methods Study of Pediatric Critical Care Unit (PICU) Experiences
LikeLike
Thanks for the info, much appreciated.
LikeLike
Also a bit confused maybe someone can clear it up ,
The EEG data that was consistent with consciousness was recorded up to 60 mins when cardiac arrest began ? Or after CPR was administered. In the blog you said CA but I thought what I read before was when CPR began .
LikeLiked by 1 person
You are right Jorge, CPR.
LikeLike
So if the 2 readable EEGs in the 28 studied people are from people that does not remember anything, it seems that those “normal/near normal” EEGs does not produce a very “normal” consciousness which “normally” stores memories, right? Of course they can loose them by amnesia after CPR… But this suggests that those EEGs are not so “normal” and probably (but without evidence in this study) the 6 NDEs with their clear memories have nothing to do with electrical activity.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi Alejandro, you make a good point. However, we know nothing about the EEGs of these 2 other than that they were “interpretable”. They have could have been in suppression the whole time, but the paper does not say this. It is a detail that should have been included, because if they had shown EEG consistent with conscious activity, yet had no recollections, then that would have been interesting, although given the whole memory issue, it would be hard to draw definitive conclusions.
LikeLike
We generally know very well what happens in the brain during hypoxia in the brain. A good overview on EEG data and rSO2 levels during G-LOC is given in “EEG correlates of G-induced loss of consciousness”.
Within the G-LOC experiments you get into a centrifuge and the speed raises until the blood supply is low enough to induce unconsciousness.
It starts with a reduction in the vision field until you are blind and after that, short dreams (called dreamlets) are induced.
I guess, that is what we see here in these NDE studies:
– very high blood supply during CPR: fully conscious and feeling what happens to your body.
– lower blood supply: dreams (like the dreamlets mentioned above)
– extreme low blood supply: REDs
I guess, remembering dreamlets or REDs depends on enough EEG activity to get a smooth transition via dreamlet/RED to regaining “normal” consciousness.
You have the same situation at night: If you wake up from a dream and think about it, you can remember the dream. But if you are only awake for a few seconds and directly go to another dream without further reflection, you normally do not remember it.
That is also the reason, why patients under (deep) anaesthesia normally will not recall anything (see Cool study, see effect of Midazolam on memory recall etc.).
LikeLiked by 1 person
Not sure what you are saying Peter. Are you saying that REDs are due to low blood supply, or only occur during low blood supply? Either way, while it is interesting to speculate, unfortunately we can draw no conclusions from the data provided.
The fact is that many, if not most reported NDEs, and especially OBEs we hear about occur immediately after CA, often prior to CPR, and sometimes with no CPR at all where ROSC occurs spontaneously. Also, some NDEs seem to continue beyond ROSC while the patient is still in coma.
This study had an inclusion criteria of IHCA of >5mins. Why? Possibly from the data it appears that the mean time for the modified crash cart to arrive was 4-5 mins, and it takes at least 1 min to get the tablet working. This is a serious obstacle to gathering potential verifiable OBEs due to the fact most of the ER OBEs seem to occur immediately after CA begins, then they waft off up the tunnel or wherever. Again, not a criticism of the study team, they are building the airplane as they learn to fly. It just highlights the extreme difficulty of capturing one of these things.
My hope was for a long time was in DHCA as most of the variables are nailed down, but as you point out the anaesthesia used may severely impact the ability to recall any conscious activity, or indeed it may induce a state in which the consciousness is settled and does not respond to the trigger that would normally liberate it. Pure speculation of course. Either way, the most recent DHCA study that tried to look at the NDEs drew a complete blank, suggesting that maybe Parnia will experience even greater frustration with that study that with AWARE II. I have enormous respect for his patience and tenacity. I hope (and pray) that one day it is rewarded.
LikeLike
I think what he is saying is that the EEG activity could be a bio marker of how one REMEMBERS an RED. Not that low blood flow creates the experience.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s is a really insightful comment. I had missed that possible interpretation. Thank you.
LikeLike
That’s the point. The medical studies show, that with a sufficient blood flow during CPR, you are aware of your body and the surroundings. As the blood flow gets lower, you go into a dream state, as shown by the G-LOC experiments. But as the blood flow is severely disturbed (so that a brain could not trigger any experience), it is possible to get any REDs. For the last sentence, we unfortunately have no clear evidence but hints of several studies (experiences during cardiac arrest vs. infarcts, depolarisation during hypoxia not allowing any experience due to synaptic decoupling etc.).
But: as you see from experiments with Midazolam (and also other amnesia anaesthetics), from remembering of dreams and from experiences of cardiac arrest survivors, you need some brain activity to remember these experiences.
Maybe due to smooth transition from one state to another with reflection, that is needed for remembering or some neural traces that are needed for a human being to remember anything (you need neural states for moving your arm and you also need neural states for remembering, so some traces need to be created).
With that, I do not want to say, that memory is inside the brain (there is good philosophical evidence, that this is not possible), but I want to say that as a living human being with a body, you need neural traces for all your actions (is it raising an arm or remembering your dinner from yesterday/or your RED).
LikeLiked by 1 person
This does obviously move into the philosophical, but I wonder if the mechanism for the release of the consciousness is related to this.
If dualism is the correct hypothesis explaining our existence and the nature of consciousness, then there must be some physiological mechanism by which our consciousness is tethered to our brains (almost certainly some quantum mechanical process – which in fact all processes fundamentally are). This is obviously broken in the instance of sudden CA. It is clearly disrupted by certain pharmacological interventions, such as psychedelics or sedatives/ anaesthesia.
I propose an alternative explanation to the zero NDE with midazolam etc to the disruption of memory, and that is that the mechanisms that cause the release of the consciousness are becalmed, even during CA, because CA was delivered in the least disruptive way possible, the consciousness just persists in a subdued, almost neutral state.
LikeLike
If this were true, it would mean the brain is required for recall in some way. The filter theory of consciousness states that the brain filters or limits consciousness. In this case the EEG acting on the brain is somehow providing conscious awareness to memory that would have been generated without the brain. Im not arguing against your point as I’ve come to believe the brain/mind interaction is not as simple as a filter. Nonetheless I hope I understood your point correctly.
LikeLike
If these two patients had EEG data but had no explicit recall, would that not be some evidence that the captured EEG data in all of the patients is actually of no experiential value? If the case is to be made that observed EEG activity at or beyond cardiac arrest is a potential bio marker of conscious experience, then wouldn’t it be expected for these two patients to report some type of conscious experience?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think you make a good point, but without knowing the details of the EEG data, for example both patients could have been in burst suppression, it is impossible to start hypothesising. It doesn’t say whether these two patients had EEG data consistent with conscious activity, just they had interpretable EEG. I suspect he will present this kind of granular data at a later convention…as you know Michael, this is the bread and butter of academics and publications! Headline study followed by multiple sub analyses. We do it all the time.
LikeLike
Hello. In an old update you wrote was 1 visual OBE on 28 but now, in the last update, you wrote “Nobody identified the visual image”.
What does It mean?
Thanks
LikeLiked by 1 person
Yes, way way back in December 2019 in his first presentation on AWARE II he mentioned that one patient had visual recollection. I probably got very over excited and said this was on OBE! Now, there is a patient with visual recollections…he sees doctors in scrubs and whatnot, but we have no EEG data, no time stamp or way of corroborating what he saw was during CA, or a memory from afterwards, or during an episode of CPRIC. For all we know it could have been an OBE, but it isn’t a case I would like to defend.
LikeLike
Ok so that patient didn’t recognize the control image and nobody has done that for now. Will you do other tests about visual OBE in the future?
Thanks for answer and for your job.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hey Matteo,
I am not Sam Parnia, and don’t conduct NDE research myself. I just provide commentary on it. From the website it appears they are continuing the AWARE II study, and also conducting a similar study in DHCA.
LikeLike
https://mindmatters.ai/2023/07/its-becoming-clearer-that-the-mind-is-not-the-brain/
Interesting article
LikeLiked by 1 person
The name of the article is exactly what I’m trying to say. The brain CANNOT feasibly function for what we consider consciousness during a state of CA. People experience things despite the heart stopping and what would be absence of consciousness activity. This doesn’t really add up to common theory that the brain is linked to everything. At most the brain is probably a conduit but it’s not the actually all of what we are. More research is needed. Mostly to find the true source of consciousness since evidence points to it not being the brain.
LikeLiked by 1 person
https://mindmatters.ai/2023/07/its-becoming-clearer-that-the-mind-is-not-the-brain/
Interesting article
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well not much about afterlife experiences I did feel like bringing this up since I discussed it a while back regarding the rejuvenation healthcare innovations. https://www.lifespan.io/road-maps/the-rejuvenation-roadmap/. I periodically check back at this to see what’s changed and it’s nothing short of groundbreaking. With more time we could make more discoveries as well as innovate to greater horizons. In a way it could help with NDE research since we could have more time to develop more advanced tools to pioneer innovation in the field. I look at this and the more and more I look at it the more and more convinced I am that we are in some sort of biomedical revolution. It’s becoming very large to ignore at this point. This site is actually very informative and has had a track record of helping to pioneer and fun medical breakthroughs and developments. All fundraisers have at least hit their minimum goals though more recent ones have hit all stretch goals.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The second book I wrote, but never self published was called The Farm and suspiciously similar to the film the Island, except I wrote it 10 years before the island came out! I thought at the time that maybe someone had pinched it, then realised that the idea had first surfaced in 70s or 80s in another film.
Age is programmed into us. Ultimately we come from two cells, grow into this immensely complex organisms that are healthy and able to mend cellular damage for a period of time before these processes start to break down and cellular damage overwhelms us. It has always seemed possible to me that we might be able to interfere with the processes that cause or allow this to happen. I do not follow the research myself, as I have lost interest in the idea of longevity beyond that which a conventional healthy lifestyle affords. I actually look forward to death (not the bit between good health and dying though). The idea of spending more time than necessary on this planet is anathema to me. Yes it is beautiful, yes life can be exciting and wonderful, and relationships are to be treasured, but I am utterly convinced that what lies beyond, at least for some of us, is vastly better.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Nowt you can do about the brain… by the time you’re in your late 20’s you brain is in decline… but you can stay ahead of the youngsters because you know more… by the time you’re in your mid 50’s for most people, your brain is in full cognitive decline, and you can’t keep up. At that point, one should probably bow out, and leave it to the younger generations to control society’s trajectory. In a few specialist niches, specialists can stay ahead due to special knowledge, well into later life, but it’s only because they have little in the way of competition.
LikeLiked by 1 person
“Leave it to the younger generation to control society’s trajectory”
Mmmm, not sure I completely agree with that one. Experience counts for at least as much as processing speed and power!
LikeLike
https://neurosciencenews.com/glia-transplant-disease-neurogenesis-23675/
Everything is just cells. I have been researching that too. Apparently there are treatments in the work for brain related diseases.
LikeLike
I’ve been following longevity research for years
LikeLiked by 1 person
Cool. Same here.
LikeLike
Lol 😂
LikeLike
Conclusion of the study
Multiple lines of evidence lead to the conclusion that near-death experiences are medically inexplicable and cannot be explained by known physical brain function. Many of the foregoing lines of evidence would be remarkable if they were reported by a group of individuals during conscious experiences. However, NDErs are generally unconscious or clinically dead at the time of their experiences and should have no lucid organizational recollections of their period of unconsciousness.
It is instructive to consider how near-death experiencers themselves view the reality of their experiences. An NDERF survey of 1122 returnees asked, “How do you currently view the reality of your experience?”, and received the following responses:
The experience was very real 962 95.6%
The experience was probably real 40 4.0%
The experience was probably not real 3 0.3%
The experience was not real at all 1 0.1%
Open in a separate window
The vast majority of more than 1,000 people who experienced near-deaths believed their experiences were very real. The 1,122 returnees interviewed included many doctors, scientists, lawyers and nurses. These findings suggest that, for most of us who have not personally experienced an NDE, we should be very wary of labeling NDEs as “unreal.” Given that such a large percentage of NDErs view their experiences as “definitely real,” it would be reasonable to accept their assessment of the reality of their personal experience unless there is good evidence that their experiences were not real.
After more than 35 years of academic investigations of near-death experiences, the entirety of what is observed in NDEs has not been adequately explained based on the physical function of the brain. It is beyond the scope of this article to review the many proposed “explanations” of the near-death experience. Over the years, more than 20 different “explanations” for the NDE have been suggested, spanning the gamut of physiological, psychological, and cultural causes. If one or more of these “explanations” were widely accepted as plausible, then there would be no need for so many different “explanations” of the NDE. Among those who believe that physical brain function must explain everything experienced in all NDEs, there is no consensus on how physical brain function produces NDEs.
Go to:
Conclusion
The combination of the above nine lines of evidence converges to the conclusion that near-death experiences are medically inexplicable. One or more of the nine lines of evidence would probably be reasonably persuasive to many, but the combination of all nine lines of evidence presented provides strong evidence that NDEs are, in a word, real.
_———– Full article here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6172100/…
interesting article, I learned about it through the website of Doctor Claudio Pisani, Italy.
Referral links:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/298187519017838
http://www.ampupage.eu/?fbclid=IwAR0wxOSlEc6n335kiZnUUK4dR2NaKUmT6nQmFXQIKqSaCqEt2c-obLZsxU8
Greetings
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is a good study, qualitative in nature, although the results are numbers. For me it puts it perfectly how the weight of human testimony is incontrovertible evidence in itself. It ay not be scientific but it is beyond doubt in the eyes of all who are reasonable and rational, and not unhinged by some fanatical materialist bias.
Thinking along the same lines I was going to produce a post featuring on particular NDE report, by the attending physician, which like so many others means you really have to have to blind not see the truth of the phenomenon. I will also refer to this paper that you have cited here as it is strong evidence as well. There was another more recent one as well.
LikeLike
When will you post this material on your site?
LikeLiked by 1 person
This week, possibly the weekend.
LikeLiked by 1 person
NDEs have nothing to do with restorability.
There is no “experience”, ND or otherwise without brain activity.
So, while the stuff was experienced, the brain was active.
If you could hit a ⏸ button on your brain and all activity ceased, while being fully healthy and not near death at all, and 5 min later you hit ▶️ again, you would have “experienced” nothing at all.
So, yes, there was brain activity when those NDEs were experienced.
Hello, I just wanted to share this argument that I found on the internet and I just wanted to express two things
One is I think that the person starts from assuming that the experience is already something created by the brain and that is why it is not possible.
and secondly, I feel that when it comes to the issue of NDE, people believe that even a drop of electrical activity, so to speak, is capable of explaining a conscious state equal to or richer than that of our day to day
LikeLiked by 1 person
Unfortunately there are a lot of people who hold to this, although I do not believe the majority. As they say, there are none so blind as those that will not see.
LikeLike
But all the comments in your post are off target.
1. We can’t hit a pause button on the brain to cease all activity. The very fabric of our experience is as we understand it is composed of forces and matter. We are looking outside from the inside, but all we can experience is the result of some process which is hidden from us by the result itself.
2 The experience is inevitably mediated by the brain, but our experience of a fleshy brain itself is only the result of some process that creates the experience of the brain, and the experience hides the process from us.
3. And why not? We have single and multicellular ancient organisms from the past, still existing today, which don’t contain any neurons which could fire to create an EEG that we could measure, even in principle. Yet some of these organisms navigate around in space-time, react to the environment, find food, even find mates, and have sex. If ancient organisms have a mechanism that allow such behavioural activity, without any neurons, and merely uses the environmental information in which it is embedded, then a similar mechanism is surely a candidate for some similar- but currently unknown- mechanism within us.
LikeLike
Hi, been a long time lurker for a while, this is my first comment.
I think NDEs or REDs are a fascinating phenomenon although keeping up with plethora of “explanations” can be dizzying.
I have a question regarding the psychedelic understanding of NDEs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10345338/
The article above is a study investigating the similarities between the DMT state and the NDE, in the study the authors mention that the life review, meeting the deceased and a point of no return are all unique phenomena to NDEs. However elsewhere in the article they claim that these phenomena can be reproduced by certain psychedelic substances but give no references. So are the life review etc, all unique phenomena to NDE?
LikeLiked by 1 person
Welcome Bob. There are thousands of “lurkers”, always good to hear from them, especially when they have something worthwhile to say. In all truth I have not read all the literature on psychedelic induced states to be able to say with authority one way or the other whether the life review and some of the other core elements of NDEs are ever experienced after taking a psychedelic. What is interesting from this though is the account from someone who has had an NDE and who states that the two experiences are qualitatively different. My gut feeling is that psychedelics somehow bend the or wobble the links between the physical brain and consciousness allowing a distortion of perceived reality, whereas only in NDEs does fully authentic “separation” occur allowing the exploration of full reality.
LikeLike
“My gut feeling is that psychedelics somehow bend the or wobble the links between the physical brain and consciousness allowing a distortion of perceived reality”.
Didn’t know this was being discussed as I was just now looking at this link, neurobiologist Andrew Gallimore talks of the big question re (4th section in the link) “Where is the DMT universe located?”
He says, “This is the central question that I’ve been wrestling with for the last 20 years.” Talks specifically about DMT and Terence McKenna saying DMT gives a “100% reality channel switch” and Andrew says “it’s a completely different model of reality” not just something distorted from “normal reality”. He says the brain cannot construct these “entirely coherent, inordinately complex, hyper-dimensional worlds filled with seemingly hyper-intelligent beings” as it’s used to making our normal reality. No mapping – I might say, in mathematics.
Anyway a taster of the interview, but again Sam Parnia does talk of DMT in his 2022 co-authored NYAS paper where they seem to be neutral on the reality of DMT experiences.
Psychonauts Are Now Mapping Hyper-Dimensional Worlds June 2023
LikeLike
.
@ Bob_Allan
Nichols 2018 offers one perspective on the specific DMT to NDE relationship… https://notsoprofound.com/content/files/2023/03/DMT-and-the-pineal-gland—Separating-fact-from-myth-by-David-Nichols–2017-.pdf
Although I have little interest in the results of the following paper from the University Hospital Liege team, their discussion at the end of the paper is a good jumping off point for lots of relevant references to explore on this subject… https://orbi.uliege.be/bitstream/2268/231971/1/1-s2.0-S105381001830535X-main.pdf
Personally speaking I think the Carhart-Harris paper’s results are interesting https://www.pnas.org/doi/full/10.1073/pnas.1518377113
LikeLiked by 1 person
Well, this looks interesting…
https://thedebrief.org/impossible-science-mit-scientists-successfully-demonstrate-first-ever-control-over-quantum-randomness/
LikeLiked by 1 person
They still haven’t released the full documentry Rethinking death on Dr. Parnia website. I’m done trying to look for it. If they release it fine, if not whatever. I don’t know emwhats taking so long. They already shown it back in May.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Rethinking death is released but it’s quite expensive to purchase. Between $300-400
LikeLike
Why would they price it so expensive? I knew I should have joined that free Zoom session (where they apparently showcased the movie. . . for FREE!).
LikeLike
Does anyone feel like playing the lottery so that we can watch this?
LikeLiked by 1 person
I watched it for free, and I can honestly say it may be worth $3.75. It’s OK, but nothing earth shaking They’ve probably been trying to flog it to a network and not had any buyers so resorting to extorting desperate NDE fanatics.
LikeLiked by 1 person
See here – Rethinking Death
https://www.collectiveeye.org/products/rethinking-death?fbclid=IwAR3FW27X5GkgyPvZOa2nTSzZskf0SXlDKtanqTiCbd4FlGUVxFp1fsDxfTk
LikeLike
From looking at the website and the other titles on the website I imagine it more about a distribution channel to sell the film to groups or the like (like a school system somewhere etc) then the average punter in the street. Or something like that.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Thanks for letting me know
LikeLike
I agree. $375 is alot to watch a documentary. I hope they air it soon for free.
LikeLike
I agree I would really like to see it
LikeLike
I got an email today from the company that has the documentary Rethinking Death. They said it supposed to be available cor video on demand soon. Just not yet. If anyone wants to post it on here, that would be great.
LikeLiked by 1 person
That’s good to hear. It is a good documentary, and like a said worth paying a small amount for to watch.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I look forward to seeing it soon. If anyone wants to post it here, feel free.
LikeLike
https://www.lifespan.io/road-maps/the-rejuvenation-roadmap/
I occasionally read up on this and I find this to truly be exciting times for people in the medical field. NR seems to hold great promise in repairing DNA and reversing biological aging in people due to genes being the root cause of aging. Build up of errors in genes kills people. That’s why I think something needs to be done about that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
TS, would be nice if they could figure that out.
LikeLike
The best option really is to try and donate to any projects they have and fund the hero campaign. The more people aware the better.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’d suggest checking your local library. It seems one of the price points is for a library??
LikeLiked by 1 person
Anyone purchased the Rethinking death DVD, or would like to post it on this forum?
LikeLike
https://www.lifespan.io/campaigns/join-us-become-a-lifespan-hero/
Sad this doesn’t have much traction. It amazes me it was able to make major progress as a whole despite only having monthly funds in the 5000s.
LikeLike
Check out the Life Extension Foundation at http://www.lef.org. They do and sponsor alot of life extension research
LikeLiked by 1 person
Pingback: A Cunning Plan? | AwareofAware