My Last Ever Post On Work By Borjigin.
I don’t want to spend too long on this as I have already made the key points in the previous post, but I do want to highlight how utterly fallacious Borjigin’s assertions about NDEs are . This link to a video of her reviewing her work was provided by Dave:
The link was accompanied by a question from Dave, which I am sure many lay people would ask after watching this video:
“Borjigin seems to present data that shows the brain activity still continues for minutes after cardiac arrest, not just 30 seconds…. doesn’t her evidence in this talk show that the brain can continue receiving electrical signals for long periods [after CA]?”
Firstly, I do not want to launch an ad hominin attack on Borjigin (I have had to temper some of my language on second edit), but having watched this video there are only two possible conclusions that you can draw about her as a scientist when she presents a slide like the one below.
She claims that she has disproved the key assumption that Pim Van Lommel and other proponents of NDEs make, namely that the brain stops being active at the point of or very soon after Cardiac arrest [begins] (10-20 seconds maximum) and that therefore consciousness is not possible and so NDEs are evidence that the consciousness, or soul, persists beyond death.
Borjigin claims that her data shows that in both animals and humans that the brain is showing signs of consciousness for long periods during cardiac arrest. She says “We win!”.
Her claim is demonstrably false and they haven’t “won”.
This is what Borjigin has shown:
- When cardiac arrest is induced in rats, there is brain activity for up to 20 seconds afterwards.
- When rats are killed slowly by denying them oxygen (asphyxia) their brains show increased activity for a period after asphyxia, but it stops before cardiac arrest.
- In 2 human coma patients she shows a similar result in that when oxygen is withdrawn, there is an increase in EEG activity (and the heart rate goes up). All EEG and ECG activity stop simultaneously after about 5 minutes i.e. brain activity ceases at the point of cardiac arrest…which is the common observation of most ER doctors, and actually proves what Van Lommel says i.e. the brain ceases activity at or very soon after CA.
Clearly something is not adding up with what she is saying. It is either a deliberate attempt to deceive or a gross misunderstanding of the key term under consideration in this paper and Van Lommel’s assertion. It is quite embarrassing for Borjigin, but I am starting to wonder if it is the latter, although still entertaining the former.
Borjigin is equating the onset of asphyxia with the beginning of Cardiac Arrest. Let’s just once again look at the definition of cardiac arrest, the definition used by physicians, cardiologists etc and most certainly Van Lommel, Greyson, Parnia et al:
“Cardiac arrest occurs when the heart suddenly and unexpectedly stops pumping. If this happens, blood stops flowing to the brain and other vital organs.” NIH defintion
Cardiac arrest is when the heart has stopped beating. CARDIAC ARREST IS NOT THE PERIOD OF CARDIAC ACTIVITY PRIOR TO THE HEART STOPPING, THE PERIOD THAT BORJIGIN IS DISCUSSING.
By using the point at which oxygen is withdrawn to define the beginning of cardiac arrest is either extremely mendacious or extremely ignorant, and in doing so Borjigin manufactures her widely reported and, at least by the complicit materialist types, accepted fallacy that brain activity continues for long periods during Cardiac Arrest.
I am now going to do my own analogous experiment. Hold on…
….OK, I’m back. I breathed normally, then, without taking a deep breath, halfway through exhaling, I grabbed my nose, and sealed my lips. After 45 seconds in a “Borjigin defined Cardiac Arrest”, I started to get quite anxious. My brain was running hot (or to quote Borjigin “literally brain on fire.”), so I took a breath. That is the EEG activity she is describing (albeit in comatose patients without oxygen or rats breathing in CO2). I kid you not.
I think the BEARS idea makes obvious sense (the brain goes into meltdown when the blood it is receiving contains less oxygen than needed), but only while the heart is beating and as for the brain stopping the heart to preserve brain function…let’s just say that towards the end of the video some of her arguments descend into farce, replete with glaring contradictions. As a scientist myself, my cringeometer was off the chart. I had to stop, it was excruciating, I would have thrown something at my expensive new Samsung TV.
I am happy to answer any questions you have about this video and Borjigin’s work in this post, but I will not waste another full post on her nonsense.
AwareofAware 
As a layperson, I have at best a neophytic understanding of the heavily jargon laced scientific papers (or videos) which you are accustomed to reviewing. I therefore look at efficacy of Borjigin’s work the same way you detect a blackhole: indirectly. In other words, has the scientific community – outside of those with a dog in the materialistic fight – hailed her findings as breakthroughs that nullify NDEs, adding a deeper understanding to the nature of consciousness? Have any scientists who were once on the non-materialistic camp rescinded their arguments and switched sides after listening to Borjigin’s presentations? Her arguments go back, if I’m not mistaken, for at least a decade. Have Borjigin’s assertions been recognized as irrefutable and uncontestable scientific facts, to the point where other scientists no longer challenge the findings but are instead guided by them? I think that answer to these questions is an uncompromising NO. Let me not mislead you, I struggle with this subject matter (NDEs) continuously, and my interest in it goes back to when my age was in the single digits.
I skipped the video since it would only cloudy my thoughts on NDEs.
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You don’t need to be that good at science to understand what is going on. I think she relies on stuffing her work full of jargon to make it look convincing, but the moment you look at it clearly and see that the coma patients had heart beat all the time the EEG was doing its thing, and once the heart stopped, so did brain activity, then you know that the claims she makes are complete rubbish.
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Borgijin has a PhD from John Hopkins but does not disclose what it is in. It is probably in physiology or physiology related. But one thing is certain, and that is they are not a medical doctor. I do not consider Borgijin qualified as an expert in cardiac arrest. Neither would Borgijin meet a court of law criteria for qualifying experts to give expert testimony to assist the court for cardiac arrest.
Either Borgijin doesn’t seem to remotely understand what cardiac arrest is or is willing to completely change its meaning to suit her agenda. There are always people out there in science fields (as well as all others) willing to stretch things so they can be the ones who made a great new discovery – and I hope this is not what Borgijin is consciously doing here.
I like your 45 second going off line experiment – that was funny and very clever. And put it all straight – even for the materialists that are completely and utterly foolish to wish for their own and their and loved ones total annihilation.
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Yes, I am undecided as to whether it is ignorance or mendacity. Neither serve the scientific community or the advancement of knowledge well.
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As I already wrote, I talked to a molecular neuroscientist about the conclusions of Borjigin in relation to consciousness during hypoxia of the brain. He also confirmed me, that this is nonsense because synaptic coupling diminishes very early and this „firing“ results from single unconnected cells.
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To be honest some of the granular detail on precise interpretation of EEG signals is beyond me, and it is good to hear other expert opinion further undermining the conclusions that Borjigin makes. But for me it is the fundamental error of calling a period of asphyxia when the heart is still pumping, Cardiac Arrest, that completely destroys her conclusion that the brain is active for long periods during CA. It is bonkers.
Also suggesting that the brain stops the heart beating to preserve brain function is possibly the most idiotic thing I have ever heard in my life. It is not really related to the NDE issue, but it reveals that her thinking is somewhat flawed (to put it far more politely than she deserves).
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Thanks Peter K..buen dato
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Hi Peter K…Are you saying that it is not necessary to reach anoxia (TOTAL LACK OF OXYGEN) for a synaptic disconnection to occur? That it occurs at a point of hypoxia in the brain, i.e. even if there is a scarce, however minimal, amount of oxygen?
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I would also like to know a bit more on this. In the video Borjigin says that syncope occurs after a period of oxygen depravation and the EEG changes accordingly and that is still minutes before full cardiac arrest. In fact in the 2013 rat experiments the rats had activity up to 20 seconds post CA, but in the asphyxia studies they lost notable activity before CA.
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Hi,
yes, that is what I say. Unfortunately, it is a long time ago that I worked on this topic. Also in the state of hypoxia (still some oxygen available) the synaptic communication fails and you just have a big bunch of single neurons firing. But to get more information on that topic I recommend the dissertation of Zandt, which can be found here: Neuronal Activity and Ion Homeostasis in the Hypoxic Brain – https://ris.utwente.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/6057972/thesis-BJ_Zandt.pdf
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For a good overview please have a look at figure 2.4 from the dissertation:
Neural activity is reduced in two ways. After ischemia/hypoxia, synaptic transmission is one of the first processes to fail [23]. This process is not well-understood, but suppression of presynaptic calcium influx plays an important role [24], as well as adenosine, a breakdown product of ATP, blocking synapses after depolarization [25].
23: J. Hofmeijer and M. J. A. M. van Putten, “Ischemic cerebral damage: an appraisal of synaptic
failure.”, Stroke 43, 607–615 (2012).
Protein synthesis fails first, followed by synaptic and electrical activity, reflected in the somatosensory evoked potential and EEG. Upon further reduction of blood flow, the cells
depolarize. The core is the region where blood flow is insufficient to sustain ATP levels, resulting in anoxic depolarization.
As you can see, synaptic transmission fails very early. After further reduction of blood flow, it comes to a depolarization. I guess, this depolarization are the main reason for the EEG data.
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Based on what the molecular neuroscientist Peter K consulted, and also on the latest experiment in rats (anoxic depillarisation wave), there could then be electrical activity in the EEG both with synaptic activity and without synaptic connection.
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“We win!”
This is basically all they and their team care about. Not science, not the truth, not the understanding of what a CA is (though, it’s hard to grasp how they can seriously believe CA happens before an actual CA? big confusion… You sure they really did that? Or did we misunderstand something? I don’t see where, though…) They just want to be in the right. They want to win.
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Just wanted to clarify something from this part of your blog post – you said when oxygen is withdrawn EEG activity and heart rate increases, then all EEG and ECG activity stops simultaneously after about 5 minutes, does it stop at the time of or soon after cardiac arrest, or 5 minutes after cardiac arrest? Or 5 minutes after oxygen is withdrawn? If it’s this one, how long does it take for cardiac arrest to occur?
Just wanted to clarify is all, hope my questions are clear haha.
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Hi Rawbie,
It is confusing, but if the heart is beating, it is pumping oxygen to the brain, and the patient is not in Cardiac Arrest. ECG activity indicates the heart is beating. In these two cases most of the EEG activity of interest stopped before the heart stopped, but there was some residual activity not indicative of consciousness until the heart stopped.
I think I may do a video to explain.
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Ben- If you could do a video to further explain this it would be extremely helpful.
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I will. Probably in a couple of weeks time though.
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study lasted 20 years, from 1986 to 2001 and was published in THE LANCET. In this study it was shown that the nerve cells of the tendon brain decay and therefore it is difficult to recover a sane person after 5 minutes, therefore it is statistically impossible to resuscitate them without serious consequences, they will therefore be incapable of discernment and motor skills of any kind. This happens in 99% of cases, with very rare exceptions. By connecting the person to the electroencephalogram (in a condition of absence of impulses, flat), and to the equipment that demonstrated cardiac arrest; where therefore there was not even this possible residual electrical energy in the brain PEOPLE WERE LIVING AN EXPERIENCE. DMT? Or more brain products? Adrenaline? Is the brain trying to protect itself? Dr Pim Van Lommel has shown that these do not even cause the experiences and that it is not PHYSIOLOGICALLY possible. Because there is one thing that even neurologists must admit is that when we have a “flat” electroencephalogram, it is not only possible not to experience experiences, sensations or memories, but above all it is not possible to MEMORIZE THEM. Memories cannot be accumulated. Obviously beyond the empirical evidence of OBEs, which are already proof in themselves. What Pim van Lommel was trying to demonstrate is that in the absence of biological functions, therefore with clinical death, not only confirmed, prolonged over time, it is NOT scientifically possible for a person not only to experience experiences but also to have the ability to remember them , store them. In short, you cannot recover data from a broken hard disk. So the question is what is holding these memories? What keeps a person’s character alive? Your feelings? Even though they are clinically dead. This is the question that Pin Vam Lommel and his team pose to science in the future. And therefore let us study and try to understand where the conscience was in that situation. After 2001 Vam Lommel continued to study to face and compare himself with other doctors and specialists, he then compared himself with four other studies… in his interview Vam Lommel states that we must try a new scientific approach POST material, otherwise we remain stuck in the believe or not believe phase. He takes the example of the atom that was hypothesized by the ancient Greek philosophers, theorizing it, since as for today’s NDEs they did not have the scientific instruments… discovered and confirmed then in the 40s of the last century. So going back to the four studies following the 2001 one, one American and one English found almost the same percentage of NDEs out of a total of 562.
All authors concluded that no physiological or psychological model alone can explain ALL THE ELEMENTS THAT THESE EXPERIENCES HAVE IN COMMON. If we rely on recent discoveries in neurophysiology as well as on the concepts of quantum physics, our consciousness cannot be localized in a given time or space, and this is what patients say after having had an NDE. Everything about the past and future is instantly available, and this is why we talk about non-local consciousness, beyond time and space.
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it should be repeated like a mantra
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do you have a link to the study
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https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(01)07100-8/abstract
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It’s not correct that there are only 2 propositions (as presented in Borgijin’s slide).
Lots of Magnetobiology research clearly shows there is something we’re not understanding, which has a direct relationship to NDE OBE’s, two examples I like:
I don’t have any problems with Borgijin’s results, they are very interesting. But I don’t think her theory is right. Neither do I believe the typically recalled hospital-type veridical NDE OBE is evidence of something leaving the experients body.
The bottom line is that there is masses of evidence that people seem to recall experiences which are not their own. That’s just a fact, and a very big clue as to what is really going on.
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Hi Max,
Could you clarify what you mean by this:
“I don’t have any problems with Borgijin’s results, they are very interesting”
Are you saying my analysis is wrong?
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Could you clarify this concept better? “The bottom line is that there is plenty of evidence that people seem to remember experiences that are not their own. This is just a fact and a very important clue as to what you are really going on”
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Comment removed and replaced with the following by BW:
Everyone is allowed to comment here provided they are respectful of others and don’t cut and paste articles. I won’t allow comments that are derogatory about other commenters to appear – although I was guilty of that last year with Tim 😦
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a dying brain that can do this: “if we were to do here what I did as far as the places I traveled and the things I learned, it would take about two or three months here… there it seemed like it was even an eternity.” I would always like to have a brain in asphyxiation as in the dying phase, I would be super gifted! Absurd, the ideology of materialism taken to excess becomes the worst obstacle to knowledge, people like this Borjigin (whom I don’t know and don’t even care to know considering what he says and does) have been exaggerating for too long now.
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Max B if I correct subscribes to a version of super psi whereby all things are seen through a shared created mind reality of sorts by all people. Aplogies if I am wrong Max. I just know reading your stiff from.penny satori blog many years ago.
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so I’m participating in the creation of a mental reality and I don’t know… already here they skip the creation and sharing part, “something” doesn’t add up. However, it is legitimate to seek further explanations, everyone has the freedom to fantasize as they see fit. The message of those who return is strong and clear for those who want to understand… then everyone can tell us all the background they want.
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I’m with you on this one. I do not buy the philosophical idealism view that we are just living in some sort of extended consciousness, and therefore just entertainment. Yes, I believe we are the result of a conscious act of “creation”, but we are independent beings with free choice that has consequences. We have an eternal destiny if we make the right choices. Anyway we won’t know the full truth this side of death.
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I don’t think my ideas fit under any labels.
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The “We win!” comment is a bit of a joke, but it’s still such a painful reminder of what all this seems to boil down to. You read what people say about researchers who are willing to take NDEs seriously and they think that they’re all in it for the afterlife stuff and aren’t just people doing their jobs.
But then I suppose for some people on both sides it does just come down to ‘winning’, because the implications are so great if one outcome turns out to be true. Life doesn’t end at death and all of the marvels/horrors that come with that revelation, or reaffirming the view that everything is the way it seems to be and we don’t have to worry about shaking up our worldviews. When it comes to a person’s existence you can expect there to be some toxic people on both sides.
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I came across this video that was talking about a guy that went into a coma in 1940 and woke up 2000 years later.
https://youtu.be/8HgLQGb907s?feature=shared
It wouldn’t be intriguing if I wouldn’t have also found many historical references, books etc as well as this IANDS presentation on the matter
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9CLEOnBb8&feature=youtu.be
please let me know what you think
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Conclusions
Near-death experiences have been reported since antiquity and have profound clinical, scientific, philosophical, and existential implications. The neurobiology of the near-death state in the mammalian brain is characterized by surges of gamma activity, as well as enhanced coherence and communication across the cortex. However, correlating these neurophysiologic findings with experience has been elusive. Future approaches to understanding near-death experience mechanisms might involve psychedelic drugs and computational modeling. Clinicians and scientists in anesthesiology have contributed to the science of near-death experiences and are well positioned to advance the field through systematic investigation and team science approaches.
https://pubs.asahq.org/anesthesiology/article/doi/10.1097/ALN.0000000000004970/140050/Consciousness-and-the-Dying-Brain
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Is this publication proposing a materialistic NDE cause or are they just talking about other studies? I couldn’t tell what the authors were getting at.
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Although many, including physicians and scientists, have asserted that the near-death experience constitutes evidence for an extracorporeal source of consciousness, we reject any non-neurobiological explanation
after this initial statement, I wanted to stop reading…
However, the text provides an overview of the latest studies on brain activity before death, showing high EEG activity immediately afterwards.
shows studies on the similarities between nde and people who have taken psychedelics.
Finally, an overview of theories of consciousness.
result: nothing new, it is absolutely not proven that the brain generates these experiences.
moreover, as often happens, there is no mention whatsoever of extracorporeal testimonies.
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That is because it is loaded with endless jargon that says absolutely nothing of importance or relevance. It just summarises the studies that we have discussed here that tell us nothing about veridical OBEs or REDs.
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As others have said, this just summarises the previous studies findings, namely:
1. In rats injected with potassium cyanide causing immediate CA, there was EEG activity which may be indicative of consciousness up to 20 seconds after CA.
2. In rat and human studies in which oxygen was withdrawn, EEG markers of consciousness persisted for a period while the heart was still working, but ceased before CA.
3. In AWARE II patients receiving CPR showed EEG markers of consciousness up to 60 mins after CA.
As others have said. None of these studies accounts for veridical OBEs (or even attempts to account for them), nor do they have any reports of whether or not the subjects actually experienced any form of conscious recollection.
A very long-winded jargon-laden nothing-burger.
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The article doesn’t take into account cases of veridical perception and peak in darren cases. Read Bruce Greyson book After and Sam Parnia book Erasing Death for starters. Also check out the university of Virginia division of perceptual studies as well.
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