Do Rats Have NDEs?
Apologies for the weird image, but this was my first attempt at using AI!
This study looks at what happens to rat brains around the time of death.
The main difference between this and the previous (infamous) rat study published by Borjigin in 2013 is that it analyses what happens through different layers of the brain to see if activity occurs at deeper levels for differing periods of time. The short answer to the question of whether there are differences is that for the most part, and in terms of differences that would be important to our area of interest – conscious activity – there are no major distinguishable differences in the timings and nature of initial activity in the different layers of brain immediately after death.
The diagram shows the rough timings with ECoG vs heart rate and blood oxygen levels (SpO2). ECoG (electrocorticogram) is invasive and uses probes that penetrate the exposed surface of the brain, as opposed to EEG – (electroencephalogram) which uses sensors placed on the scalp. This enables the study to identify electrical activity deeper in the brain.
What we see is that about 30 seconds after the removal of oxygen the heartbeat slows quickly to about 10% of its normal rate, then within about another 30 seconds normal brain activity ceases and the ECoG flatlines or becomes “isoelectric”. During this 30 seconds after CA it is plausible that conscious activity could occur. This is the claim made in the Bojigin study that got the materialist community so excited since it could be argued that NDEs occurred during this period. This paper references that discussion without asserting any new conclusions, or indeed using the findings from this study to confirm those conclusions. They have nothing to say about rats having NDEs. Well done, that is good science.
About a minute after brain activity has stopped, brain cells (neurons) undergo depolarisation (WAD). This basically means the cells move to a a non-functional, but recoverable state. Prior to this they are in a state of readiness and functional, but are not functioning. During this wave of depolarisation there is a slow wave electrical signal. This is not associated with conscious activity and is just a marker of the change in electrical state of the brain. Unlike the initial activity, this wave is not synchronous across all layers, i.e. it occurs like a wave spreading across the layers. Resuming the flow of oxygen allows for the brain to slowly recover activity.
Other than showing that the changes in brain activity that occur immediately after death are uniform through all layers of the brain, they also demonstrated that subsequent depolarisation is triggered in a set of neurons in a specific layer, and the WAD spreads from this locale. This is all very interesting if you are neurobiologist, but what does it mean for NDEs?
Unfortunately there were no able to recall awareness in follow up interviews, hence the lack of statements on Rat NDEs. As a result this study does not provide any new data to inform us about the viability of conscious activity immediately around the time of death. We knew that EEG activity that may be associated with consciousness persisted for about half a minute after CA from the previous rat study and the coma patients who had their life support withdrawn. Without any reports from the rats or dead coma patients of recollections of AWARENESS, it is impossible to correlate this activity with NDEs.
Let’s for a moment consider the wider implications of this in light of Parnia’s disinhibition hypothesis. As I have said before I have no beef with the hypothesis itself – namely that at some point after death the brain enters a different state in which consciousness is able to access previously unknown dimensions of reality. It may even be that dissociation occurs and the consciousness and brain part company and that this may be associated with specific markers observed on EEG – in fact if you adhere to the dualist philosophy, then it makes perfect sense. My beef is…well read previous posts! Presumably the brain would dissociate or become disinhibited while activity is still observed on the EEG or in this case ECoG, in which case it must happen in the first 30 seconds after CA (and in the absence of CPR or alternative life support). It is possible that full dissociation occurs during the WAD phase, but there are no markers of consciousness associated with this.
One of the limitations of the AWARE II study was the fact that on average it took over 4 minutes after CA for the specially designed crash carts to reach the resuscitation suites and another minute to get ready. This means that the first moments of any OBE, which presumably begin 30 seconds, or at the latest, a minute after CA, would be missed. In fact it is highly likely that if the OBE starts immediately after the EEG stops, then the crash cart probably arrives after the consciousness has been sucked up the tunnel!
Another post on a paper reviewing psychedelics and NDE-like experiences will appear before long. In the meantime, if you didn’t buy my book previously, then I have uploaded an updated version that contains an analysis of the AWARE II publication from last year, along with 7 OBEs that were verified by HCPs that are in my view every bit as convincing as iPad verified OBE – I am running a free promotion for 3 days on the Kindle version. It is available in all Amazon markets:
If you can’t be bothered reading my book or have read it already, but just want to “tip” me (Orson – real name) because you enjoy my work, then click below:
AwareofAware 
Ben, for sure I would like to acquire and read some of your books, but they are not published in Spanish. And I only understand and speak that language.
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And I don’t speak Spanish…maybe I could get AI to do a translation. You could check it makes sense. Mind you, after the mess it made of my rat picture, I’m not sure I trust AI that much yet.
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There are quite a few early organisms around, which don’t have any neurons at all. But they still have helix-like protien structures – Cilia and Centrioles etc. They act intelligently and/or, find mates, have sex etc. without needing any firing neurons. I think it’s plausible that they may have some type of experience too. So I don’t think a lack of neuronal firing (measured using EEG/iEEG) automatically means that there is no experience / near death experience.
Pavlo Mikheenko, Professor of Condensed Matter Physics at The University of Oslo, Norway has recently been publishing research using using Magnetic force microscopy, which builds evidence supporting the presence of warm/wet superconductivity within cylindrical, helix-like microtubules. And there is a lot of research into microtubules elsewhere. Penrose throwing his weight behind Hameroff’s suggestion, that microtubules might be the candidate for consciousness, has legitimized research in this field.
However, I suspect that to recall veridical hospital-type OBE’s (because I suggest sensory information is anomalously transferred from third parties) , some percentage of neurons would need sufficient energy to be available, to allow some degree of the experients network to become entrained by the local external EM fields within which the networks were embedded.
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Been following this blog for years, and I think you identified the key problem: how might we successfully interview rats and/or dead people? I didn’t know about the roughly 4-minute delay with the crash cart. That’s such a critical piece of information. Perhaps getting rats to speak is easier than conducting a legitimately conclusive AWARE study.
Let’s say the crash cart arrives after consciousness has been “sucked up the tunnel” (to another dimension, necessarily rendering any consciousness-associated activity immeasurable in this dimension).
For those who come back to this dimension, would the return of readings indicate that moment? If so, can you estimate that the length of a person’s NDE was roughy one minute after CA until activity returned?
I guess my point is, do you measure an NDE not by when there were signals associated with consciousness, but by the gap of time during which there were no signals? You can’t measure what isn’t in this dimension.
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Exactly. Also one of the exclusion criteria entry into the study was for CA less than 5 minutes. I discuss this in the latest version of my book, but it seems somewhat arbitrary, and possibly related to the fact that the AWARE II cart would not be up and running until that time.
I think the “signals of consciousness” are a bit of a distraction. The brain controls everything, and if it has been off line a little while, or is about to go offline, then there will be a lot of activity and I am not convinced that you would be able to distinguish it that easily from markers of consciousness. Moreover, there are lots of NDEs, or OBEs, in which the patient does not always immediately return to their body on ROSC, but continue to have experiences while under coma. If people have verified OBEs while under coma then this would muddy the waters still further as materialists might try to claim this was due to brain activity, which would of course be nonsense.
Ultimately though you are right. Parnia used to always maintain that people were having experiences while there was no brain activity. That was one of his main points as to why they were not the result of a physiological process. The experiences occur while there is no brain activity. His study has produced some brain activity during CPR, and he has had to adapt to his new disinhibition position, but in doing so he has strayed from good science by stretching this from a hypothesis to fact. I suspect that he did it to pre-empt materialist attacks, but I don’t like the way he has done it.
Ultimately, if he gets a proven OBE from one his studies, it all becomes moot. Yes, his disinhibition theory may still have legs, and shed light on the mechanisms of “tethering the consciousness to the brain” but most people will be focused on the fact that dualism is proven, and the details will be background noise.
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Hi Tim! I agree with you on your point…..
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Sam Parnia will be featured on the nour foundation tommorow.
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Thanks Paul.
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Ben- This should be a worthwhile interview, despite our collective disillusionment with Dr. Parnia. I’m sure that you are aware of Parnia’s first interview with the Noor Foundation back in 2013. In that interview there were a number of panelist – some of which you may recognize – that most likely will be absent from this one. And just like in the first interview, this latest one will be hosted by Steve Paulson. It should take two weeks to possibly over a month before it becomes available to YouTube audiences.
Having experienced instances of consecutive disappointments with Parnia’s interviews, I’m reluctant to raise my hopes, since past interviews have been repetitive and discouragingly shallow.
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I look forward to it. In truth, until he has new data, then there is not an awful lot more he can add to the subject. Much of it is subjective speculation based on observations. That is fine, and totally appropriate for him to make, just don’t want to see assertions when there is no factual basis.
I have huge admiration for Parnia as a human being who shows enourmous compassion and understanding for his patients, and his desire discover and share vital knowledge with whole of humanity, which is demonstrated in his tenacity and determination to follow this through. I hope that one day, not too far in the future, he has more to talk about than a few subjects who had EEG spikes during CPR who subsequently sadly died, or didn’t remember anything (as in the 2 from the interviews).
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Meant to write “Nuor”.
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Well stated. What interests me about this secondary interview with the Nour Foundation is that I’m thinking of it as a sequel to the first. Having gone one previous round with Parnia, the host (hopefully) will be prepared with a collection of deeper questions that has eluded previous interviews. And, yes, my correction of “Noor” contains yet another misspelling: Nuor. Shameful. I wanted to add a correction to the correction but I did not want to muddy the comment section with superfluous posts.
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In the Aware II study, CPR performed by Parnia’s team started on average 4/5 minutes after arrest….. But, in addition, according to the report in the journal Resuscitation, the patients were already being attended before those 5 minutes by a resuscitation team that was not theirs (Parnia’s), which was trying to rescue the patient immediately until the Aware II resuscitation team arrived.
Consequently, I do not know how this disinhibition could have been measured. I cannot accept the disinhibition theory.
The objective of Aware II was to study consciousness during resuscitation (CPR).
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Eduardo, as Tim also points out, it is a significant limitation in this study, and one that is hard to overcome unless every resuscitation suite was equipped with the AWARE II equipment. I guess this where the DHCA study may hopefully be more productive. However, I am less confident than I once was that DHCA using modern techniques will produce NDEs. We will see.
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Thanks for the replies, Ben and Eduardo, and thanks for keeping the focus on: 1 hit = sufficient evidence.
When I try to wrap my head around NDEs, OBEs, and related phenomena, I’m reminded of simulation theory, the holographic principle, some variants of panpsychism, and similar ideas and theories that propose the existence of some deeper reality. What we sense right now is an imperfect representation of absolute reality. Maybe consciousness, when “untethered,” is at least occasionally able to experience reality as one would with sensory organs.
I wonder what current theory/idea would most closely compliment the idea that consciousness could untether and still see, hear, store memory, etc. I imagine this is not an original question. If there is a hit one day, the next question will be “how”?
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I need my morning coffee before I respond to that! It is indeed possibly the most intriguing aspect of our existence…the nature of reality, and what is reality, and if the “real” reality is swirling around us or accessed through an inter-dimensional tunnel, then what does that mean for us etc. I think about it rather too much if I am honest, but I also feel I have found the answer through my faith…at least part of the answer. There are then questions about that “real” reality and where that comes from, and how our consciousness comes into being, and how is it related to the “Being Of Light” that is talked about by so many NDErs…are we just extensions of that central consciousness, loosely connected “nodes” but not independent, or are we “children” of that consciousness…the cord has been cut, with unique independent and potentially destructible identities? Again, we get clues about this from NDEs.
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they study NDEs without understanding the meaning of the message that the “pre” death experience sends. Universal love also involves mice, they are living beings too… and they are certainly not carrying out their experiments with dying patients but with unfortunate healthy animals. With men we can call them studies, as studies are carried out on people dying due to natural events… but in the case of mice in the laboratory they are experiments in all respects, they become real killings for the benefit of selfishness human. They start badly by already ignoring the first greatest evidence, the main empirical evidence which is the most important constant of NDEs has been ignored again.
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Very good point Silvio – they are experimenting with and causing the suffering of and death of living beings who have no choice in the matter. Very selfish indeed. And nothing is even really gained from doing so.
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It is a very fine line as to when using animals of any kind is justified in research. I am inclined to agree in this instance and maybe question whether the need justified the suffering.
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New interview:
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Hi Matt, thanks. This is actually a very old interview…maybe as far back as 2014, but no worries, always good to see it again.
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The interpretation of this study in regards of near death phenomena is absolute nonsense. Same with Parnia’s disinhibition theory.
In this situation the brain is synaptically completely decoupled, so that no conscious experiency can be triggered. The wave – also called “wave of death” – is due to anoxic depolarization of each cell on its own. There is no synchronized activity between cell assemblies.
In an easy language: In this situation the brain does not act as a whole, but each cell fires on their own due to anoxic depolarization processes.
This discussion is now a few years old and I discussed this study with a researcher from this area. He agreed on this point and stated clearly, that these processes have nothing to do with any conscious experience.
With this, I do not want to say, that CPR is not able to provide enough oxygen to the brain. There are enough studies, which show that in rare cases people can be fully awake during CPR (see e.g.: Lundsgaard R. A rare but extremely distressing phenomenon: Patients being conscious during CPR [Internet]. Eurak allert the global source for. science news. 2018. Available from: https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2018-06/eso-arb060118.php)
But the spreading wave theory or the disinhibition theory from Parnia in regard to NDEs is completely wrong.
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Excellent Peter K. Thank you very much!!! I too think it is totally wrong Sam Parnia’s theory of disinhibition….We should keep in mind that Parnia studied consciousness during Reanimation….. Parnia said that: ” and many of the brain’s natural braking systems stop working, which is known as disinhibition. This causes dormant parts of the brain to be activated WHICH ARE SEEN AS TRANSIENT PEAKS OF ACTIVITY. This provides access to new dimensions of reality etc. etc. etc. ”
The problem I see with this theory of disinhibition presented by Parnia is that, a priori, it is impossible to separate what would be a “natural brain shutdown process” from what is the effect of the minimal blood flow generated by the CPR itself on the brain. Thanks again Peter! Absolutely agree with you!
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Here’s the YouTube link to the latest Sam Parnia interview.
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I did not see the complete video, only a few minutes. But in minute 57 Parnia makes a clear statement:
„That consciousness is simply produced by the brain and dies with the brain is clearly questionable and not correct in my opinion. „
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I thought it was an excellent interview. I considered it an opportunity for Dr. Parnia – in front of a live audience and a face-to-face moderator – to better state his perspective on NDEs. Yes, there are instances in which he is extrapolating a conclusion, but it’s based on the scientific data that he and et al have amassed. I also appreciated how he committed himself – publicly and without reservation – to the assertion that the brain does not create consciousness. He also addressed the dismissive theories that many skeptics have submitted to debunk the validity of NDEs, and he did so without a care of criticism to himself. Personally, I think this may be his best interview in the past ten years.
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OK…I will have to watch it 🙂
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Ben- It’s worth taking note that in this interview, Dr. Parnia, in one of his responses, referenced his documentary “Rethinking Death”. It was a bit unclear, but he alluded to the possibility of either expanding the documentary or the number of NDE testimonies featured in the documentary. To me, this makes sense. While I enjoyed “Rethinking Death”, I would have liked to have seen a greater number of experiencers sharing their NDEs. We’ll see.
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I did not see the complete video, only a few minutes. But in minute 57 Parnia makes a clear statement:
„That consciousness is simply produced by the brain and dies with the brain is clearly questionable and not correct in my opinion. „
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Thanks Thomas. Good video. As an aside fair play to both of them for sitting on those seats for some 80 odd minutes.
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I must admit I haven’t watched it…I am working on my novel at the moment so a bit distracted by that (although a post about psychedelics will be appearing soon). 80 minutes! Is it worth watching? Is there anything new?
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Hi Ben. I flicked through. I read the transcript amd skipped to certain parts. I found it interformative and sort of positively informal. From the bits I saw it was not a dry talk.
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in this interview he clearly “confesses” that he is convinced of the survival of consciousness. A truly very important interview, new horizons have opened up for science and for all of humanity. I think he has had numerous empirical evidence that he cannot show as objective evidence to the “scientific/academic” world (at least for now), the emphasis with which he explains his position clearly gives the idea of having personally understood something very important, he himself must have had very personal experiences in this sense.
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I enjoyed watching it. It was very informative
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New Parnia interview just landed: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSYdCRhnZN8
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Good interview by Dr. Parnia. Can’t wait to read his new book Lucid Dying coming out in August
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I just wish one of his studies would produce a “hit”. his books would increase their sales by an order or so of magnitude (and mine hopefully…I might get into 3 figures!! 🙂 )
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I totally agree
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I have studied near death Experiences and other so called spiritual
Happenings for 40 years or more. The arguments against and for, and to me one of the most important things that is largely ignored is the question, can you think at all without language? Now you may think this is unrelated, but give it some thought. There is also the problem of multiple personalities in which there have been cases of a person having quite a few different personalities which, when any one of them was in control, they were unaware of any of the others……
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That is a very intriguing question. What is your answer and what does that answer mean?
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There was a case in America of a young boy who from birth was deaf and blind, he eventually at age 7 I think it was, that he suddenly gained sight and hearing, when asked what it was like not being able to see or hear, his answer was that there was nothing, he had no thoughts, which suggests no consciousness.
Supposing, there is a life after death, how do you think. Which language would you think in?
Do you lose your personality, as in multiple personality disorders, I don’t have any real answers, but after my own research and discounting the urban myths such as the shoe on the ledge case I tend to dismiss the life after death theory.
There are other ideas though such as the mind becomes part of the quantum foam, wherein quanta pop in and out of existence all the the time, this would explain dreams of future events during sleep, as the consciousness during sleep would be free of the constraints of time. There was a first world war soldier who wrote a couple of books on this subject which is interesting reading, you could look them up and have a read.
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That is an interesting case, but it is just one case and you provide no more information. For instance, do all deaf and dumb kids have no thoughts? As AW suggests, they are able to interact through other sensory inputs, so I would suspect not. Were there other neurological issues that co-existed with the deafness and blindness that meant that his brain was not functioning properly either, but that was also resolved at the same time his sight and hearing appeared? Far too many confounding factors to draw any generalised conclusions about the nature of the consciousness from one case.
From NDE accounts, the ego is lost on death, but the sense of being an individual unique conscious being is retained, albeit connected to everyone and everything much more than they had realised in a way that removes some of the sense of being “independent” (as opposed to unique) as we understand in our current physical setting.
As for language, in NDEs people say that they don’t speak out loud but rather communicate through telepathy, which is presumably language-less and completely direct without any doubt as to meaning or interpretation.
As for quantum foam, it is way beyond my understanding to speculate on the relationship between quantum mechanics and consciousness, other than to say that I suspect quantum processes are connected to how our consciousness interacts with space and time and allows us perceive this physical world.
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While there is no empirical evidence demonstrating humans experience complete sensory inputs from birth, I found the following statement regarding severe sensory deprivation: Evidence supporting consciousness in individuals with congenital sensory deprivation includes their ability to communicate, engage in social interactions, demonstrate imagination and creativity, and adapt to challenges. Neuroimaging studies also reveal brain reorganization, suggesting conscious processes at work despite the absence of specific sensory inputs.
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I think you’re getting confused, people with multiple personalities don’t lose their personalities but create additional ones due to traumatic events. A sort of alternation occurs, precisely for self-defense mechanisms. Not to mention that there could also be external factors such as possession (I know it’s less scientific, but it’s still another hypothesis). Dissociative identity disorder usually occurs in people who have endured overwhelming stress or trauma during childhood. In the United States, Canada and Europe, approximately 90% of people suffering from this disorder have suffered abuse (physical, sexual or emotional) or serious abandonment as children. Some people have not been abused but have experienced a very significant early loss (such as the death of a parent), a serious illness, or extremely stressful events.
Human development requires that a child learns to integrate diverse and complex information and experiences to form a complex and coherent personal identity. Sexual and physical abuse that occurs during childhood, when personal identity is developing, can have lasting effects on the person’s ability to build a single, unified identity, especially if the perpetrator is a parent or deputy.
The child who has suffered abuse may go through phases in which different perceptions, memories and emotions of his or her life experiences are kept segregated. This segregation of experiences is intensified by parents or other caregivers behaving inconsistently over time (for example, being alternately affectionate or abusive), a behavior that is referred to as betrayal trauma. . Over time, these children may develop an increasing ability to escape the abuse by “walking away,” separating themselves from the difficult physical environment, or taking refuge in their own minds. Each traumatic phase or experience can be used to produce a different identity.
However, if these vulnerable children are sufficiently protected and reassured by effectively compliant adults, dissociative identity disorder is less likely to develop.
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The demonstration of the existence of thought without language: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1634707211706237
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Regarding minds and personalities, you should check out Yair Pinto‘s revision on the split brain experiment: it was widely believed that split brains let to split minds. But recent experiments have shown that even with connections severed between the two hemisphere: it does not lead to split minds. Creatures like slime molds, ants, bacteria, jellyfish, and plants display signs of intelligence without a centralized physical brain through decentralized systems or collective behaviors.
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Many thanks to James for sparking this thought-provoking discussion. I had always considered the nature of the mind during sleep and other unconscious states, particularly when my eyes are closed during rests. However, I am now leaning towards the belief that we might be unaware of our self-awareness in those states. This inclination arises from my observation that upon waking, I often don’t recall my dreams until specific events trigger those memories. Thus, I find it plausible to be unaware of our own awareness at times.
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Aw could you post a link or a source for your sensory deprivation from birth information. The only close link I could find was the American woman which wasn’t complete sensory deprivation.
I have read all about the split brain experiments that you mention, as well as all the writings on individuals having complete self awareness and motor control despite having virtually no brains at all.
I have thought long and hard on your idea of not remembering dreams, which some 20 odd years ago led me to the split personality research which mirrors your idea of even though there was consciousness the other personalities couldn’t remember it.
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I remember some of my dreams. I’ve had a few corkers which feel like they were real such is the mark they have left on my memory.
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JW Dunne,
An experiment with time.
If you are interested in dreams , consciousness and the nature of reality, this book is a good read, one of many hundreds I have read on the nature of consciousness and life after death. To gain an insight into reality this is the type of thing to peruse.
You probably will find no mention of this gentlemen at all on the internet, though his work is, or was, fairly well known amongst certain circles.
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By the way Mr Williams, a very good book on dream recall, was called as I remember it, ‘senoi dream control’, can’t remember the author as I read it about 30 years ago, it has various techniques which I studied and found to work. I must say though, that even though the techniques work perfectly, the story itself was written as a carriage for the authors own thoughts.
Anyway I probably shall not be posting anymore on here as I am a very busy person, hope my insights may have been helpful to you, wish I had time to share all of my research into various topics relating to consciousness but alas not.
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Dear Giacomo, “I probably won’t post here anymore because I’m a very busy person”
we are all busy, often very busy, never take anything for granted. Said as you wrote it, it sounds a little bad but rightly so when you are busy in operating rooms night and day it is difficult to find time to compare yourself with others. You began by writing that you have been studying near-death experiences for forty years, have you published anything? In which hospitals have you worked? In which medical teams? I am also INTERESTED in near-death experiences, I won’t say since when as it is irrelevant for the purposes of the dialogue, but I certainly cannot say that I have studied them as I don’t put myself on the level of doctors like Elizabeth Kubler Ross, Peter Fenwich, Pim van Lommel, Sam Parnia, Jeffrey Long, Bruce Greyson etc. etc. A little sense of proportion wouldn’t hurt, even when you then add: “and other so-called
spiritual events”. At this point we await your references, if you allow we need to understand who we are dealing with. Greetings
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Thank you Ben for the great article and to everyone for all the very interesting and informative comments. I just have a thought to add that is more general and reverses the question about the human/animal comparison, I think NDE proof in humans would also be proof that other animals have NDEs. It doesn’t make sense to me that only one species would experience NDEs, or that consciousness would continue after physical death in only one species.
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I do hope so. We were particularly fond of our last cat, Burp, who unfortunately, but conveniently, died of cancer just before we returned to the UK from canada (would have cost us $1300 if we’d had to fly her back). The vet did send us a card saying that Burp would be waiting for us at the rainbow bridge until we get there! Honestly, I really hope so, she was a very sweet animal.
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Having also had beloved pets, I hope so too!
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Great point Anna. We have two mid-size Kangal dogs, lovely blondes, and one had a general health scan but was first put under with an anaesthetic which took around 20 minutes to work. This guy is a bold intelligent fellow but during the time to go unconscious while lying down he went through a period of fear as if in some other realm and being attacked by something or many things. It was really shocking and I was angry at the vet. He said it was normal which got me thinking. He stiffened, cried out, etc. Total fear, he’s never been like this. So I’m thinking of all this amazing hallucination stuff during psilocybin etc. that people go through and was he in some non-real or real animal realm? But how could he imagine it? Where does he get the imagination to so imagine? Thinking of this disinhibition stuff so I wonder if he really was somewhere else. It’s why I talk a lot to both of them, we run in the mountains together and I can’t help thinking I’m helping their souls through this life – maybe to something better than what he went through at least. Maybe dog to human next time around would be nice 🙂
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Sounds like your dogs have a better life than many humans!
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Lucky to live in mountains as we do I try to realise their potential. Hunters too and have dispatched a few small wild animals. Pity I couldn’t interview the male after his experience … working on it 😉 Anyway, everyone’s had dogs and each is special. The male watches my feet from behind down a rocky slope then goes on after it flattens out! The female sometimes mugs him from behind on his neck in a “drive-by” then carries on happy for it. And the ways ours are glued to our words is common too.
Seriously though, if we accept other realms for humans after death we must for other creatures. If true, my hope is for these two to somehow progress out of theirs. Cloud Atlas? “We are bound to others, past and present, and by each crime and every kindness, we birth our future.” Buddhism says a human can be reborn as an animal so maybe the other way around? Tricky to consider though.
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This isn’t exactly on topic for this blog post, but in your NDE book, you mentioned that your next book will discuss the relationship between Christian teachings and the findings from NDEs. I am specifically interested in that topic too and just thought I’d share the below YouTube video of Dr. Habermas briefly touching on the subject (as this is the first time I’ve come across anyone discussing it): Dr. Gary Habermas – Near Death Experiences – YouTube (starts around the 41 min mark).
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I will look at this. It is the specific topic of my next book, but spoiler alert…I raise my hands in church on a Sunday morning and worship Jesus/God with all my heart and I think I glimpse what the NDErs glimpse…in fact I know it because I had an experience that I will describe in more detail in that book.
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“[I]n fact I know it because I had an experience that I will describe in more detail in that book.”
Interesting. Looking forward to hearing it. I’ve had what I would characterize as minor, subtle experiences that energize the momentum. None, however, has convinced me beyond the shadow of a doubt nor could any of these experiences withstand the rigors of scientific scrutiny. On a personal note, many years ago I came very close (and I do mean VERY close) to entering the ministry, as I had cleared many of the application inquiries of my local diocese.
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No individual experience could withstand the rigour of scientific scrutiny without a validated scientific confirmation. However, as I lay out in the latest version of my book, the evidence we have already should, and would under normal circumstances, withstand scientific scrutiny. I use the example of drug studies in depression where the subjective reports of patients are confirmed by physicians and accepted by the medical scientific establishment.
Related to this, I actually got down to the last two candidates for a job as European field medical lead for a company that is in late stage development of a psychedelic for the treatment of depression. I would have been very interested to learn about the reports of patients from their subjective experience of taking psychedelics. My next post will be on the subject of overlap of psychedelic experiences and NDEs. Coming before Easter.
Lastly, I have recounted my experience on here in the past. It was a dream, but all I can say is it that felt more real than reality, so I believe it was transcendental in nature. Due to this experience, which was the most intense I can remember, I would be a liar to myself and others if i didn’t say that Jesus was the route to God. I have kept my specific faith out of the first two books I have written on the evidence for the soul and God, and for the most part off this blog as I appreciate that everyone is on a very personal journey of understanding and that I hate it when people try to shove their stuff down my throat. However, I will make no apologies about the last book being specifically about Jesus and why I am certain that he is the Being Of Light, that his teachings are perfect and that through him not only can you be assured of eternal life, but your life here is infinitely better. Anyway, I will shut up now…I will save that for my third book. Although there are a fair few believers on here, many are not and this blog is about NDE evidence.
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You are correct, these experiences cannot yet satisfy scientific validation, but, as I’s sure you agree, there is compelling evidence to move them beyond the anecdotal plane or be considered an epiphenomena (in my opinion). You mentioned that your experience came in the form of a dream. I, too, have had dreams in addition to numerous experiences that were subtle, perhaps even trivial, but revelatory to some degree.
Recently, I had to make a dreaded trip to the dentist’s office. While there, I had to have a CT Scan of my skull so the dentist could make an accurate evaluation of my chief complaint. After the CT was completed, I sat and waited for instructions from the technician as to where I was to go next. While I sat and waited, I could see a picture of the skull, suspended on the technician’s computer screen, spinning around in three dimensions. It dawned on me that regardless of how deeply I looked into that skull, no matter how much I explored its infinitesimal constituents, I would never find “me”. It’s as “me” and that skull were separate entities (perhaps we are). But that begged the question: If I’m not that skull, than where am I? Where is “me”? Now, I completely understand that trivial nature of this experience. After all, it didn’t involve an NDE or an OBE or visions of angels or deceased loved ones. Nonetheless, it’s was an epiphany of compelling potency, one that firmly placed me on the existential path to even greater awareness (or questions).
In addition to the above mentions, I have had experiences that are difficult to dismiss as merely coincidental.
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Significant here, Are Near-Death Experiences Real? | Psychology Today interview with a recent Ph.D in NDEs and an American Psychological Association connected book New APA Book: Death as an Altered State of Consciousness | Psychology Today Still trying to interview my dog BTW, seems he’s a thinker not a speaker.
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Telepathy? But would your dog just bark in your head?
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I actually wrote a long answer to this, but it disappeared. Maybe the Matrix didn’t like it! I somewhat agree with the conclusion of her thesis, namely that neither materialism or dualism provide satisfactory explanations to the existence and persistence beyond this life of our consciousness. However, her conclusion that philosophical idealism is the only answer is not satisfactory either as it is untestable, beyond our ability to interpret given the limitations of existing inside this domain and therefore can only ever be incomplete as a theory for explaining our existence. Here I will quote Paul from 1 Corinthians:
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.”
For the answers to these deep questions, which I myself have mulled over for years on end, I have decided to accept the answers are unkowable while in this existence, but will be known, and will be satisfying. Too much pursuit of this line thinking is futile and dangerous and leads to nihilism.
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philosophical idealism … she misses any particle physics too, general relativity etc. How to get all that with PI? Maybe sticking with Parnia’s “undiscovered scientific entity” for the soul, self, any higher self, higher realm, NDEs etc. … obviates the physics issues somewhat as we’re not in the realm of quarks and warped spacetime re souls etc. But there must be an interface. I guess. Love Corinthians! I thought really interesting too as even science may only be giving a “reflection” yet we think it’s all. Thanks for reminding.
The dogs do try to will biscuits out of us by just eyeballing but haven’t yet had what I’d call a telepathic effect!
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We were in a restaurant the other day and there was a Dalmatian at the table next to us. It willed a lot of bacon out them and eventually willed a piece of grilled chicken out of me…it was not a fan of the falafel though. Maybe they are smarter than we give them credit for!
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Indeed!
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Often have this on continuous rotation at home, Corinthians 13 The most beautiful love hymn – Heavenly Romanian Voice, Maria Coman (I Cor. 13, 1-8) (youtube.com) She really expresses it.
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Not sure if this has previously been brought to your attention, but I thought it might be of interest to you.
https://lup.lub.lu.se/student-papers/search/publication/9131344
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Thanks. No, I hadn’t seen it. Will have a look.
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Thanks Ben. I’ve yet to read it myself since I came across it just a short while ago. One small excerpt that I found interesting was “[O]ur study has revealed newer findings that include speculation about the link between locus of control and one’s NDE…”
That locus of control sounds demands some looking into. Anyways, from your previous comments I gather that you have a busy schedule. If you get a chance to read and comment on it, I’d love to hear your opinion.
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Will do. It is quite long. I am actually horizontal at the moment after having a Lumbar Puncture last week and the leak not healing quickly enough, so don’t expect anything too soon.
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Well I wish you a full and speedy recovery. Take good care of yourself.
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Thanks!
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from the article you linked…
“To this date, there is no research directly linking locus of control, NDEs, and aftereffects. We have not specifically explored or measured if someone had or did not have internal or external locus of control, so we cannot draw any conclusions.”
“We speculate however…” “might play a role…”
and after all that they got the nerve to write this at the end:
“In addition to existing research, our study has revealed newer findings that include speculation about the link between locus of control and one’s NDE…”
in their own pubilcation they contradict themselves. it’s hard to trust such sources or to take them seriously.
i believe it answers itself. a nothing-burger.
i’m a little bit confused about you. on one hand you seem to actively look for stuff that sort of argues against the possibility of life after death by digging up all sorts of odd studies that stand on half a leg and at the same time you explain how much you want to believe in it. i mean i understand that fear of being out of control… but…
instead of mostly looking for studies against it – why not look for studies and other sources that work *towards* it? there are studies on both sides. your search seems a bit unbalenced
i feel like you focus too much on the negative side…
no hate. just trying to cheer you up and help.
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Ben, wishing you a speedy recovery
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Thanks!
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Has anyone seen the new over one hour long video from NourFoundation on YouTube with the title “Rethinking Mortality: Exploring the Intersection of Life and Death” featuring Sam Parnia?
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Not yet. Any good? Anything new?
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I listened to the entire thing. It’s really his best interview to date. He provides some very direct, unequivocal answers to his belief about God and an afterlife during the Q&A session at the end. Well worth your time.
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Ooh, that does sound like it’s worth it. I will have a listen this week.
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I have seen it. Its very good and informative
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I think it’s very good and I believe there is some new insights into the pig studies. He is also very straight forward when it comes to his position on these topics.
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Interesting part of a podcast with a neurosurgeon who talks about experiences that occurred during brain tumor surgery
It’s in Spanish, but I think with the English subtitles you can understand it quite well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALN3CfZxi-4
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Is there an english verison of the video
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I don’t think so. Try subtitles
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interesting interview, but does not differ from other published cases of alterations in perception during brain stimulation. Resembles the case described by Olaf Blanke. The patient here experienced distortions in perception, did not report a classic OBE. It is interesting cause it provides more information about the Default Network, and it’s relation with some Psychedelics, but it is not similar to case reports of OBEs (during general anaesthesia or CA). Actually I can’t think of any case of a classic OBE described during brain stimulation. In the last part, the neurosurgeon interviewed here explains OBE cases as a 3D reconstruction of previous observed surroundings. However, he did not have any cases such as as those among his patients.
good material, but different experiences in my opinion.
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I had also thought about reconstruction as a possibility before, at least in some cases. A few years ago I had sleep paralysis, and during it I saw myself from above but what I saw below was not exactly reality
The colors of the sheets were not the same, nor was my position on the bed, nor the position of the cushions. It was similar but not the same. That would perhaps explain why people cannot see the signs or images that they put in the experiments during their experiences.
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