AwareofAware

Evolving news on the science, writing and thinking about Near Death Experiences (NDEs)

Life review – just the brain closing down…really?

I love this clip, which I think is from the video of the discussion from a month back, which has now been posted on YouTube, but I just want to focus on this as these accounts are a huge lesson for all humanity:

This is one of the researchers from Parnia’s lab who describes a fairly typical account of a life review. These are almost always reported in exactly the same terms. When you listen to this, it is an absolute nonsense to believe that this could possibly be a result of the Brain shutting down.

Really worth watching. Other videos have been posted on their YouTube channel:

https://youtube.com/channel/UCOsbYu-vLtG6xOZKO09rwGw

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190 thoughts on “Life review – just the brain closing down…really?

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  1. FourDoorThreat on said:

    The RED research video on their Youtube account pretty much poo-poos on a few physical or psychological explanations for REDs, in particular it takes a stab at Borjigin rat study. Although Parnia doesn’t narrate the videos, some of the lines are verbatim of what he has said over and over. Interestingly, I haven’t seen any mention of his “dimensions” theory he was talking about for the past few months in any of their Youtube videos.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Indeed, and by putting this on the lab’s website, they are really nailing their colours to the mast. They are establishing themselves as the front runners in terms of the science of this field.

      I also get the feeling they are venturing into philosophical implications too. Knowing how religious fundamentalists think, they may be setting themselves up to become targets of some of the nastier and more extreme elements of religious groups. This would be unhelpful to their cause. It would be better if they stated the data from their studies, keep their thoughts about what it means private, and leave it to others to argue about the implications. If they are seen to favour a world view in any way, then it will make it easier to attack them as biased, which would undermine the integrity of their work. They are not in that place yet, and given their behaviour thus far, I hope they will continue to maintain complete impartiality on the issue of whether any (or all) religions are right or wrong.

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    • @Ben

      Just when ‘you’ thought it had gone quiet for a while….

      I tend to agree with your apprehension about how their (what amount to) philosophical statements/interpretations may cause alarm to religious groups.

      Heck, they are certainly going to cause alarm to the scientific hierarchy, no doubt about that. I wish I could say something (about that) but I just don’t know how it’s going to ‘pan out’.

      As I said, I broadly agree that ‘interpretations’ are probably better withheld but then again I can see the logic of Parnia’s argument that what is experienced at death should be legitimately brought into the field of science.

      Will the ideologically opposed scientists go on the offensive and try to discredit him and his researchers ? Will they try to ignore him ? You know as well as I do, they so very badly do not want to hear this. I’m awaiting the first push back and it will come sooner or later.

      @FDT

      The rat study has sustained sceptics for years now. They’ve lauded it, ‘dined out’ on it and I believe they will continue to do so. It’s about ideology, not science, with a great many of them (not all of course).

      Liked by 1 person

      • FourDoorThreat on said:

        tim, I think NDEs have been in the realm of science for decades, it’s just that most of mainstream science (or so it seems) advocates for materialist views on what they are. One of the above Youtube videos states that REDs should be studied “without prejudice”, but if you take what I said above and read between the lines, they are pretty much saying the transcendental views of REDs or that they are not hallucinations or illusions should be considered as valid views within the realm of mainstream science.

        I don’t think Sam saying the above is enough to cause a shift, and I am wondering if he and his team have something big to show from AWAREII to change perceptions. Where as Sam usually waffles and balances a thin line over the years, recent statements over the past few months appears to have been on a bit of an offensive, such as saying REDs are not hallucinations or illusions.

        Liked by 1 person

  2. Nemesiss on said:

    Diario, Yes, and there is no need to wait, but everything points to yes.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Alan on said:

    When she talks of the rippling effect of one’s action I remember the Cloud Atlas (film) line … “In your revelation you spoke of the consequences of a individual’s life rippling throughout eternity.” Cloud Atlas (reincarnation) takes rippling to another level, I guess but I wonder that what’s the point of learning from a Life Review unless it does have much larger consequences over not just one life?

    And there’s these very few people in the world who have “highly superior autobiographical memory”, remembering every detail of every day of their lives. There was an interview with one family lady who has it and she is clearly a very good person so I wonder knowing constantly your previous actions keeps you on track to be good if you can just “tap in” to each day. Heck of a world to live in though.

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  4. David on said:

    2comments rats need coverage under animal welfare act to not be killed in useless experiments

    Check out The UF O hearings. Congressmen are talking other Universe dimension and time travel

    I guess 3 points. The blocking of data isn’t because national security it’s religious fanatics Inn The pentagon.

    These phenomenon destroy the world view of the hard core atheists and Christian.

    Liked by 1 person

    • @David

      Yes and it’s a subject (animal experiments) fraught with differing ethics, morals and perspectives of exactly what should be our approach. We definitely need to treat animals with much more respect, as a minimum.

      IMO, the rat experiment, for the sake of trying to find out what happens when we (humans) die was idiotic. Others may disagree.

      Like

    • Alan on said:

      David, yep I listened in. Something’s been with us over eons and re your point I remember Senator Harry Reid saying many months back one major UFO Pentagon program, AAWSAP, with massive data was shut down after 2 years because the results were too strange for some at the Pentagon. I’ve read a recent book on all this and my head has gone missing. Ha, ha, none of this was at the Hearing of course and the Congress guys haven’t a clue. Yes, religions and scientists will be blown away. We’re at Childhood’s End but we think we’re kings.

      Rats, yes. I also read they play hide and seek but the buggers chewed my water pipes to bits.

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    • @David…that is a rabbit hole I am not going to be tempted to explore…except in my book which blends chosen nuggets of biblical theology, with UFO visits and NDEs….it could not be more suitable to you as a reader 🙂 Hopefully Part 1 will be available in August.

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      • FourDoorThreat on said:

        I actually wonder Ben if the recent serious looks at UAP phenomenon by the US Government may indirectly boost the case for Parnia and other RED researchers that work with non-physiological views. Since they are looking at those with an open mind, perhaps that might mean there maybe more researchers who may get on board with what Parnia is saying?

        A number of visual target hits may humble some materialists and get them on board the theory of non-local consciousness. The question at hand is, will we ever be able to track that consciousness?

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      • FDT, I think that the two are only connected by the fact that people who believe in either are regarded with scepticism by mainstream science. I think UFOs and the prospect of alien life visiting earth is much more acceptable to materialists than the idea of an eternal consciousness. If anything I think they would use evidence that UFOs are real to somehow bend NDE evidence into a materialist framework. They might hypothesise that our consciousness may have been the product of alien creation or something.

        For me, as a believer in the eternal consciousness and a creator, I have no problem at all with there being alien life, in fact I would be really surprised if there wasn’t loads of it everywhere in the universe. I suspect that there are many other forms of life that host consciousness beyond planet earth, and even on planet. Given my understanding of the creator, he is unlikely to be satisfied with man being the only form of life with conscious awareness, especially given the vastness of the universe.

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      • Alan on said:

        Orson, looking forward to reading and reviewing. Since you’re linking the two, apols. but have to share a dream here (couple of weeks ago). I don’t know what’s going on here in my mind, whether it’s my intense reading of all this (the two fields) or something else. Meaningful to me for sure.

        Anyway, I’m sleeping downstairs with my wife (which we do BTW) and we have a balcony you get to from a large sliding door. In my dream I go outside in the night and there’s a mountain exactly as it normally is about 3 km away. Our large garden is as normal but dark.
        Above the mountain are bright jagged clouds and there’s a ball of light between the ridge and the clouds. A penny at arms length size. It moves up, does some quick movements to the right and there’s an explosion of light as the ball explodes silently. Clouds lit up. Then I fall over but float back through the doors but now into my body on the bed. Then I wake my wife up and ask her if she saw anything. Nope.
        Thanks for sharing the video above, it’s all remarkable really.

        Liked by 1 person

    • anna on said:

      “rats need coverage under animal welfare act to not be killed in useless experiments”

      I agree. Here is an article about this subject that I found very enlightening.

      https://aeon.co/essays/why-dont-rats-get-the-same-ethical-protections-as-primates

      “Check out The UF O hearings. Congressmen are talking other Universe dimension and time travel”

      Very interesting…I hadn’t heard about this.

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      • David on said:

        Thanks. The overlap of consciousness and UFOs. Is in Skinwalkers at the Pentagon.
        They quickly accepted UFOs and then try to find out what they are. Then Lue Elizondo took over and made it just and bolts like Parnia with REDS.
        That said Lue did take part in Remote Viewing in the early 2000s. CIA dropped it Pentagon still think it works.

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      • Alan on said:

        David, that’s the book I was referring to above, written by a Pentagon rocket scientist, a major biologist and a journalist. And all witnesses to incredible events. I’ve read it and noticed mainstream media won’t touch it with a barge pole.
        Actually Leslie Kean overlaps consciousness and UFOs and has written books on UFOs and the afterlife.

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  5. Jvav on said:

    Hello everyone.

    There is something i dont get in the video “Exploring REDs through Research. Towards the end it says that people experiences have been verified and proven not to be hallucinations, yet seconds later there is that statement about not being able to prove or disprove anything. What your take on this?

    Thanx to the blog creator btw, iv been reading since 2017-8, first time posting though

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Hans on said:

    Hey,

    Sorry to bother, but I do not understand where the claim’s of “mere brain shutting down” is given a favourable probability.

    From what I know, it seems Parnia and team (aside from some) are still in favour of survival.

    As for the Rat experiment, Greyson went over it and from what I can tell nothing relevant or interesting was collected to favour any hypothesis.

    Any clarification on what I said or what I am missing is greatly appreciated!

    Like

  7. @Jvav

    Jvav said > ” …yet seconds later there is that statement about not being able to prove or disprove anything”

    It is basically what the authors concluded about Aware 1. Now, Aware 2 is concluding and it’s my opinion (doesn’t mean I’m correct, though) that they won’t have a “hit” on the laptop. Why ? Because as we’ve said, they don’t have enough patients interviewed.

    However, this time they’ve got EEG on them and IF they can time a conversation that was heard by one of the patients. to a period of flat EEG, bearing in mind that with those earphones on (which are producing a robust noise) they are actually sensory isolated (ears anyway) and they shouldn’t be able to hear anything except the stimuli, even if they were wide awake, they should not be able to hear conversations in the room.

    Their recent Instagram posts would indicate that patients HAVE heard conversations, also in the 2019 poster. If it is the case, then this is some of the first really concrete “proof” that patients can gather information and remember it without brain function. Heady stuff.

    Hard-line sceptics, however, will demand nothing less than many visual hits on the laptop. So, if he can get up more hospitals involved with Aware 3, he may just pull that off. In addition to this, as Ben rightly points out, they are conducting other studies such as possible awareness during cardiac standstill, which is very promising!

    @Hans on

    See above.

    @FDT said “recent statements over the past few months appears to have been on a bit of an offensive, such as saying REDs are not hallucinations or illusions.”

    Yes.

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Hans on said:

    @tim

    I looked at the above, as you recommended, yet I do not see any new claims?

    Isn’t it still safe to carry with the claim that Parnia and team are support of survival?

    Like

    • @Hans

      (Claims?) I don’t understand what you mean by that, Hans. But it’s likely just a differing language problem.

      Also, what do you mean by “is it safe” to think that Parnia and his team support survival ?

      Do you mean, does Parnia and his colleagues think there is a continuation of consciousness after the heart has stopped and the brain stops functioning?

      It would appear so. What do you think?

      Like

  9. anna on said:

    Thanks for the info David. That sounds like a very interesting book. I will definitely have to check it out.

    Like

  10. Hans on said:

    @tim

    Sorry, it seems there a translation/semantic issue on my part.

    Ultimately, my question was as you said. That do Parnia and team support the view that consciousness/psyche/self/soul/etc. continues after the death of the body.

    As you said, it would appear that they do. I am also leaning towards this, I merely thought that the theme of this post was the Parnia Team contradicting this survival hypothesis.

    It would appear not and hence my confusion. Haha.

    Thank you 🙂

    Like

    • When speaking Parnia is generally dualistic, but he can be a bit enigmatic in his written material. It is something we have become used to.

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      • @Ben

        Yes, I agree, Ben ! Just as an aside, I did say I was going to stop posting for a while (apologies) but I keep getting drawn back in; it’s simply just been too interesting not to. Maybe I need to stop turning on my computer.

        I don’t know about you but (once again) I can hardly believe what I heard from the panel in the lucid dying/brain awareness video. Donald Hoffman, for instance, effectively (anyway) endorsing NDE research.

        This is a big beast from the mainstream of science (he’s been published in Scientific American and many other journals) admitting the inexplainable nature of NDE’s. Lindsey Gurin, a neurologist giving credence to non local consciousness etc etc, all of them saying things they shouldn’t be saying.

        I would imagine it’s enough to make the ‘Grand Inquisitor’ himself, Steven Novella, puke !

        Liked by 1 person

      • I am going to have to listen to it in full this week. I have plenty of time now as I am gardening leave.

        Please keep posting. Everyone values your contributions!

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    • @Hans

      Hi again, no worries at all. I’m a proponent, so probably not the most objective of commenters on here to answer (although I always try to stick to what the evidence allows).

      We’re all waiting to see why they are making these statements. I hope the assured ‘manner’ of it, is not just based on any qualitative studies alone, because those (whilst still valuable scientifically) will not suffice and will never impress sceptics.

      As a pessimist, I always assume the worst.

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      • You are slightly pessimistic…I am hopeful of about 50-60 interviews with one scientifically verified EVA, and 2-3 verified EVAs from attending HCPS.

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      • Thanks, Ben, you’re very kind! Just on those figures of 50-60 interviews (say 50 but I think even that is optimistic personally) that would mean @15% rate (of RED’s) = 7.5 RED’s, call it 8.

        So 8 RED’s (real NDE’s?). Based on previous studies, that would probably produce no more than 2 out of body experiences or EVA’s, at the very best. Of course, some of the RED’s will just be NDE’s without distinctive OBE’s, if you see what I mean, but they could of course (we know) still have heard things that they should not have been able to, as their ears were isolated.

        Dunno, that’s about how I see it, though. Of course, if Parnia’s new RED definition HAS to include an EVA to be a RED, then you may be quite right and I’m wrong. But I’m not at all inclined to think that it does.

        We know how many were recruited, we need to know how many were interviewed, I guess, but will they tell us that, before the paper is published.

        Liked by 1 person

      • We don’t know how many were recruited. The study has continued since December 2019, and even that data was from May 2019, this is why I am a bit more optimistic than you 🙂

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  11. Ben said > “We don’t know how many were recruited.”

    570 they said in the update on Instagram. Are you perhaps thinking the ‘enrolled’ and the ‘recruited’ are not necessarily the same category ? I can’t see how they aren’t, the figures seem to progress logically from the previous numbers he showed us on flow charts.

    nyugsom_ccrs

    Since the second phase of AWARE began, we have enrolled 570 cardiac arrest patients across 26 different hospitals worldwide.

    Like

    • I am desperately hoping that enrolled in the Instagram post and recruited from the AHA poster are not the same thing, and it just would not make any sense at all. The 465 number was actually first presented at rounds in NYU in May 2019, then appeared in the poster in Dec 2019. I know we have had COVID, but that should only have stopped them from recruiting for maybe a 6 month period in total with two mega waves in March 2020, and winter 2020/21.

      The 465 in 2019 referred to patients who had an in hospital CA and the adapted crash cart was present, but that is it. Out of that 465, sadly 294 had no ROSC and 117 subsequently died in hospital, leaving only 44 survivors of whom 19 interviews were discussed.

      If the 567 uses the same criteria for recruitment (i.e. they had a CA and the crash cart turned up), then that means that in 2.5 years, in 26 hospitals, they only had 100 more CAs where they turned up with the cart. This would be very very slow.

      I am hoping…and maybe it is wishful thinking, that when they say enrolled, they now only include those that had ROSC, which would bump up the survival to discharge to around 120 and interviews to 60ish.

      I could be wrong.

      Like

      • Thanks, Ben !

        From memory, wasn’t the return of spontaneous circulation (ROSC) in the 2019 update 168 ? So, if you were right, they would now have had 570 with ROSC, which is nearly 3.5 times the amount– which is highly unlikely, even impossible in three extra years and with covid.

        As I’ve always seen it, recruited into the study means getting the crash cart through the doors, the equipment set up and data recorded. The patients are obviously not giving permission for this, it’s permitted by the ethics committee.

        The biggest portion of these die anyway, sadly, but the data they have from them (EEG) is still valuable, nevertheless and will be in the study.

        Then comes the time of approaching those that have survived and are well enough to be interviewed and more importantly, willing to be interviewed, because some of them don’t want to be.

        I think we had 19 patient interviews and 4 with memories last time in 2019 (4 NDE’s) so that’s why I’m thinking that they will only have about 7 NDE’s now, which is very low, but we discussed this previously.

        If my reasoning is faulty, I’ll be delighted, but I can’t see how it is. Having said that, 7 NDE’s with EEG data is unprecedented previously and is extremely significant scientifically.

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      • One of us right, and we won’t know until the paper is published. I agree that to have three times as many is a stretch, unless the other sites really geared up recruitment. But to have only had 100 more is woeful…unless in that 100, there was an NDE with a scientifically verified EVA. We will not know until autumn.

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  12. @Ben

    Ben said >”But to have only had 100 more is woeful…unless in that 100, there was an NDE with a scientifically verified EVA.”

    I suppose it is woeful. He said so himself but told us why more than once. Among all these patients that have died and left this world in the many hospital wards around the world, many of them will have seen that target, quite probably wondering what the hell it is as they exited the room. I have no doubt about that.

    But I think it’s highly unlikely he’s caught one of those with such miniscule numbers of interviews. Highly unlikely. But it doesn’t all depend on that this time, as we all know, because we now have EEG data that can provide us answers to the question by a different criteria, which although not as spectacular, is certainly highly evidential.

    I did wonder if it would be worth one of us asking Parnia or his colleagues (would you be so kind sir, as to supply a few NDE nerds with just one tiny little snippet more …pretty please?) Can you tell us how many interviews you’ve collected? 😉

    It’s no good me asking, the only thing I’ve had off them is a “like” for one slightly ‘grovelling’ (a bit) statement I made. Only the other day I asked them if that life review was from one of their recruited RED’s, but they just ignored me even though they’ve seen it, I know that.

    One of their life reviews that they’ve highlighted, I already know where it’s from and who it was, but I won’t post it here as I wouldn’t want to compromise their study. Not that it actually would, though.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. An article posted by Templeton Foundation

    https://www.templeton.org/news/can-near-death-experiences-help-us-lead-better-lives

    Nothing new to add

    Like

    • Thank. Z !

      This paragraph alludes to a new understanding of life and death, making the awful event we all dread (well most people do, anyway) more bearable for us all. Death as an absolute end has become so engrained in society, that to suggest otherwise and say so, is enough to induce incredulous anger, often rage in some. Interesting.

      “We build these models of death where death is the end and we’re happy in our ignorance,” Parnia says. “Suddenly science advances, and those researchers are struggling because their research contradicts the social notions of death.”

      Liked by 1 person

      • I got an email from the Parnia lab today in response to my request for my more information on the interviews. All will be revealed in the paper, but no updates on when that will be only that the process takes 6 months.

        Must admit Tim, I am beginning to suspect you are right and that there hasn’t been much of an increase in numbers of interviews. The publication of AWARE II could be a nothing burger…but then…”suddenly science advances”…mmm. They only need one scientifically confirmed EVA.

        Like

      • @Ben

        Ben said >”I am beginning to suspect you are right and that there hasn’t been much of an increase in numbers of interviews.

        No, I don’t think there has, but it’s only what I expected, Ben.

        Ben said >” The publication of AWARE II could be a nothing burger”

        As I’ve said previously, the numbers are just far too low for any realistic chance of a report of the laptop target, (about RED’s) unless he’s been very lucky. Penny Sartori’s 5 year study in Morriston’s hospital in Wales produced much more. One guy, Patient 10 saw everything very accurately but did not report seeing the target. He said he didn’t look that way (summary)

        Sceptics like to discount this particular OBE because of that, which is unfair. There is no reason to simply assume that someone out of their body will realise they are supposed to observe a specific symbol or picture that they didn’t know was there or they were supposed to take note of.

        To test the visual target, we need someone to claim to be up in the air above their body, high enough to see it and then either they see it or they don’t.

        If they claim to be up in the air looking down at their body high enough to see the target and they somehow don’t see it, did they see things accurately (everything else as far as can be deduced)? If they did, why did they not see the target ? Did it not interest them, for instance?

        If they claim to be up in the air looking down at their body high enough to see the target and they (again) don’t see the target but they don’t see things accurately, either, then several of these reports would support the sceptics view that it’s simply a confabulation.

        I would add that the second scenario almost never seems to occur. Patients overwhelmingly observe their surroundings correctly.

        But, we need quite a few of these floating OBErs (in the correct position) to get one hit and that’s the problem, I don’t think he’s got them.

        What he has got (or it would appear he has) we’ve already discussed. If he hasn’t even got that, then it will be a nothing burger. Or something like that scene (sketch)
        from Faulty Towers, where Basil comes back from the take away for about the third time… this time with the duck (hopefully) on a silver salver with cover, or he hopes, anyway.

        Sadly he lifts the lid and it’s just a big mound of pink blancmange. Duck’s off.

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    • Alan on said:

      Thanks for link!

      Interesting it’s on the Templeton site. If Parnia and team get hits and they sink the diehard skeptics they’ll surely get the Templeton Prize at some point.
      It went to Frank Wilczek in 2022 who won the Nobel physics in 2004 for work on QCD – the strong interaction. I had some exposure to this theory at Birkbeck. This guy is *very* interesting and has concluded the universe embodies beautiful ideas with the tantalizing possibility of an “artist”. I mean, first the ideas behind Reality (say God and a Universal Mind) then it gets embodied, right? Just like an artist before a painting. He treats beauty very seriously.

      Found this quote by him on their site after he won it.

      “The intent of the Templeton Prize is noble and timely, and something the world needs, which is to bring attention to the possibility of new approaches to the problems or situations or challenges that people have traditionally accessed through religion, and many people still do.

      “The central miracle of physics to me is the fact that by playing with equations, drawing diagrams, doing calculations, and working within the world of mental concepts and manipulations, you are actually describing the real world. If you were looking for trying to understand what God is by understanding God’s work, that’s it.”

      Don’t mean to go off beam and haven’t a clue to Wilczek’s views on NDEs. etc. Hope he’s not implying God is a mathematician because there must be more. And surely brilliant physicists have NDEs too. What would they say?

      Liked by 1 person

      • I think the key question is “what is the real world?” Yes, in my view God is a mathematician, a chemist, a biologist an artist, and this “created” world in which we find our consciousness existing, is a result of those infinite talents. It’s purposes are hinted at in the religious texts and more clearly laid out in the reports of those who have ventured into the “real real” world, and “survived” to tell us about it.

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      • Alan on said:

        Ok, I was kind of reflecting something that Max Tegmark said that the reality is mathematical, also with some theory back-up he’d devised (I think he meant *only* mathematical), and hoped Wilczek wasn’t going down that route. I rather think he means much more if he’s citing an “Artist” behind everything. And if there is real meaning to reality being understandable (Wilczek’s quote above – “The central miracle of physics to me is the fact that by playing with equations …”), for me that puts the Artist inside our minds, inside every being’s mind.

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  14. (Typo about 7 RED’S ?)

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  15. The problem with the brain idea is it fails because the brain is already dead when these experiences occur. You can’t hallucinate feasibly if the brain is dead. If the heart shuts off. The blood flow is gone. The brain is off and there is no blood flow to it. You need to be alive in some capacity to hallucinate. I.E. blood flow to the dang brain. Even if the death is temporary and you resuscitate a person they still in a way died. Maybe we should stop looking at it from the perspective of the brain but rather from the perspective of our own consciousness. After all brain is just an organ like everything else.

    Liked by 2 people

    • @TS

      You make a very good point ! However, sceptics just say that the experience did not happen when the patient said it did. They continue to say this even though we already have many verified cases (by third parties) where it absolutely did happen like that, where the patient saw and heard things when their heart and brain were not functioning.

      It’s just a matter of time now, before they will be forced to concede, but I wouldn’t bet against them trying to come up with some other explanation, maybe appealing to super psi etc. Their religion is sacred to them.

      Liked by 2 people

      • That’s just materialism for you. I have nothing against it. But it shouldn’t be preached so hard to the point where people blindly deny any evidence to the contrary and fabricate as many excuses as they can. Again we need to look at individuals as consciousness or as some call it soul. Pretty much what this is is opening Pandora’s Box so to speak. I think the next step after the hits are verified as real and believe me they likely are going to be is try and look more into what independent consciousness is and try and figure out a point of origin for it and how it even is able to use a brain as a receiver. This entire thing is very interesting. We may be able to prove some form of immortality and the fact that what we see as “mortality” is an illusion that is fabricated by our own thoughts. The possibilities are endless here. We just need one verified hit. Just one. And I think there are several of them in Aware 2 that haven’t been publicly unveiled as of yet. Got to remain optimistic.

        Liked by 1 person

      • I am with you TS on the optimism side, although Tim is definitely tempering that somewhat! I agree that it will become a whole new area of research and thinking. I am not sure that our consciousness fabricates the illusion of reality, but rather I believe that reality is a constructed illusion designed by a greater consciousness to accommodate our consciousnesses for a specific purpose. That is why my favourite film of all time is the Matrix.

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      • As I discuss at great length in my book on the origins of life, materialism is a faith system as much as any other theist religion. There is zero evidence against the eternal nature of the soul or of the existence of God, and growing evidence to support both beliefs. It is absolutely blind faith, and as with all blind faith can manifest itself in unpleasant ways when expressed by psychopaths.

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  16. Yitz on said:

    Not all atheists are psychopaths.

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  17. @Ben

    Ben said >”I agree that it will become a whole new area of research and thinking”

    I think it will, Ben but I also think we’ll need to be careful with it. The Renaissance and scientific enlightenment was of enormous benefit, wasn’t it.

    I don’t think we want the return of ‘magic’ any time soon, where we attribute crop failures to witches, for instance. I know that’s an exaggeration but it does worry me how ‘some’ may react.

    I also can’t see how this can be easily incorporated into medicine, or even why it needs to be, particularly. I’m not saying it can’t be but if it is (to be), then they’re going to have to put strict limits on it. That used to be the territory of the priests and chaplains and I’m not convinced that it can be taken off them, TBH.

    But then again, there is no good reason why ‘what happens when we die’ can’t be investigated. Let’s hope they do it right, whatever right is…

    Like

  18. Wiktor fiegler on said:

    I have recently talked with physics proffesor about red’s topic, and he said that the amnesion is probably the result of impuls in the brain which is created when our soul is returning to the body. I have asked him if that means that our body is some sort of receiver. he said that if you can disturb the signal, in this case consciousness and memories, that means that our brain coul be a receiver.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Wiktor fiegler on said:

      what do you all think about this? it is only hipothesis but in my opinion it is quite possible.

      Like

    • I struggle with the whole concept of memory in NDEs. If someone is not in their brain, where are the memories made, and why would returning to the brain, or anything else for that matter effect the laying down of memory…it all happened elsewhere and must be recorded elsewhere.

      Like

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        Interesting concept, i think that our memory and this “Thing” (i do not have better word for this) is somehow connected, you bring your whole memories there, and somehow when something went wrong you can bring some memory from there.
        that is really interesting, and the concept that something is blocking these memories is freakin interesting,because it makes it seem to me that these amnesia is not happening by accident, as if something gave us free will, how to live, so that we would live as we want, but after nde people become different because something showed them how to live, amazing

        Liked by 1 person

      • Yitz on said:

        No need, microtubules (i.e., the “quantum soul”) answers the question of memory storage.

        Like

      • @Yitz, please explain how the theory of microtubules answers the question of memory storage.

        Like

      • @Ben

        Ben said >” I struggle with the whole concept of memory in NDEs. If someone is not in their brain, where are the memories made, and why would returning to the brain, or anything else for that matter effect the laying down of memory”

        Me too, Ben. This is going to be one of the most perplexing questions for future generations. Not us, we don’t have the tools (scanners that can detect “thought” for instance) to even approach trying to find an answer. And may never have.

        It’s clearly (at least in theory) a previously undiscovered ‘substance’ (mind=self=consciousness) which likely has ‘some’ kind of materiality about it. And that’s about all we can currently speculate.

        Materialist sceptics ‘split their sides’ with laughter at such notions but thus far they haven’t got a clue either where memory resides, just a lot of unproven theories. Interestingly, Wilder Penfield, a neurosurgeon who in his attempts to try to cure epilepsy in his patients, made many significant discoveries about memory which lead him to the conclusion that mind is a separate entity.

        However, because this was nothing less than heresy, he was effectively ostracised (at the end of his career) and his book the mystery of the mind, ignored.

        @Yitz

        That’s Penrose and Hameroff”s “Orch Or” theory. It’s basically taking the argument down to the quantum level in the neurons of the brain, to the microtubules. The problem is, it still doesn’t explain how consciousness arises from the interaction of the microtubules.

        Furthermore, Microtubules are present throughout the body, not just the brain. I don’t say it’s wrong, I don’t know. All in all we’re stuck with a gigantic mystery.

        @ Wiktor fiegler

        Based on what Parnia has said recently, one would have to conclude that he is in the dualist camp. But he hasn’t actually said it outright (officially)

        Like

      • Hi Tim, agreed, and that is why I asked Yitz to explain how the whole quantum consciousness/microtubule theory can explain the formation of memory in the absence of EEG. It can’t. I have always regarded Penrose and Hameroff’s theory in a similar light to those who have tried to attribute the emergence of the DNA code to quantum mechanics. In neither cases do they explain how this would occur, and just wave the quantum mechanical magic wand knowing that 99.99% of people have no idea what is going on with quantum mechanics and therefore will likely bow to the person with expertise in this area. As part of my undergraduate studies in chemistry I had to solve Shroedinger’s wave equation. About 3-4 pages of algebra, and even though I had done it, I was still none the wiser as to how wave-particle duality related to observed physical events and its implications! However, the important thing is that they are physical events governed by specific laws of physics, and when those are adhered to the limits of how much that has not been explained can be explained by quantum mechanics are quite small.

        Like

  19. Wiktor fiegler on said:

    I am so curious what the new studies will bring, i am so afraid that they will be really pesymistic, but thats my attitude, i am just sad pesymist 🙂
    What is your attitude, and is Parnia really dualistic? He is enigmatic as hell.

    Like

    • Wiktor fiegler on said:

      does he claim in this quote “We build these models of death where death is the end and we’re happy in our ignorance,” Parnia says. “Suddenly science advances, and those researchers are struggling because their research contradicts the social notions of death.” that we survive bodily death, sorry for this question if it is obvious, but i do not know that did i understand that correctly.

      Like

  20. @Ben

    Ben said >”As part of my undergraduate studies in chemistry I had to solve Shroedinger’s wave equation. About 3-4 pages of algebra, and even though I had done it, I was still none the wiser as to how wave-particle duality related to observed physical events and its implications!

    Deserved kudos for that, Ben! I don’t understand quantum physics. In fact I don’t like to think about it too much. I think Donald Hoffman said (if I remember correctly) that we can go down to 10 to the -3 and then things start to get bigger again.

    Which begs the question… do micro universes exist and support life. If so, they aren’t micro at all they are just there, which would mean that creation is never ending both ways and there lies madness. I kind of hope that isn’t the case.

    Liked by 1 person

  21. Yitz on said:

    Ben/Tim.

    Below is a response from Dr. Stuart Hammeroff that I received some years ago regarding memory:

    “The microtubule theory everyone is so eager to get rid of is testable and will be tested soon [it has and passed, too]. It has far and away the most explanatory power and evidence. Mathew Fisher’s nuclear spin idea is interesting for memory (via CaMKII in microtubules) but not by ATP in cytoplasm and Posner clusters. Has anyone ever seen a Posner cluster in the brain? Plus it’s the wrong time scale for consciousness. . . . Brain microtubules are stabilized, so can be used for memory.”

    As for microtubules elsewhere in the body, if memory serves, they’re not compacted like the ones in our brain. How that changes things I know not. I’m no expert, but perhaps I’ll send Stuart another email and see what he says.

    Like

  22. Yitz on said:

    Believe me, I’d rather have it that the soul is more spiritual (Parnia viewpoint), but this stuff just makes too much sense to me:

    Click to access QSoulchap.pdf

    Like

    • It may or may not make sense to you, but it is all disputed speculative theoretical physics and does not in fact discount the idea of non localised consciousness with all the possible spiritual implications that has. I have no doubt myself that the consciousness relies on quantum processes to interact with the observed universe, but these theories do not appear to answer questions around the source of consciousness, rather just propose possible mechanisms of interaction.

      Theoretical physics is not just arcane, and incomprehensible to most who have not grappled with the mathematics at the heart of it, it is disputed among those experts.

      I am not an expert, so am unable to dismiss these theories using scientific argument, but just reading the text supports my understanding that the theories are not firm.

      Like

      • Yitz on said:

        “I have no doubt myself that the consciousness relies on quantum processes to interact with the observed universe, but these theories do not appear to answer questions around the source of consciousness, rather just propose possible mechanisms of interaction.”

        Ben, with all respect, how can we ever know the “source of consciousness” apart from theological claims?

        I think we’re best off with “mechanisms of interactions,” and I’m glad you like Penrose-Hameroff’s theory (which is being proven by the day, at least the fact that we can reduce down to the quantum level. . . the “soul” stuff will have to wait for Parnia’s “hit”).

        Liked by 1 person

      • Yitz on said:

        That said, we perhaps ought to strive to find a “source” — that’s what (good) science does.

        Liked by 1 person

      • @Yitz, prior to the reports of NDEs, all we had was theological claims, however now we have numerous accounts of the “Being Of Light” who very much fits the description of a source. This is evidence that corroborates various religious claims. There are other aspects of NDEs that challenge religious claims.

        Yes, I agree, good science will continue to pursue the understanding of universe in which we live, but when it comes to theoretical physics, there are times when science becomes atheology, for want of a better word. What I mean is that atheist scientist are so wed to the dogma of methodological materialism, that they pursue and then assert outlandish ideas as likely explanations. The multiverse (consecutive or parallel) is a classic example. Because the chances of a universe existing with all the right parameters for life, or even the laws of physics to exist, are so tiny (WITHOUT DELIBERATE CREATION) then because they completely and unscientifically discount creation, they invent the untestable idea of a multiverse to compensate for this uncomfortable truth.

        In Biology and chemistry, this is blatantly obvious in attempts to account for the origin of life, and theories are quickly shown to be false. I believe the same is true in theoretical physics, but because I lack the understanding of this subject, I am less able to point out why it is absurd from a scientific perspective.

        Like

    • @Yitz

      Hi, Yitz ! This entity (whatever it is) that manifests itself in the near death experience and related experiences such as death bed visions etc, seems far too complex and complete, to be the mere product of a bundle of microscopic scaffolding, released from the neurons.

      about 10 – 15 % of patients undergoing out of body experiences during cardiac arrest, report that they were in some kind of etheric body. Some even report wearing garments. They see their dead relatives that way, sometimes dressed in familiar clothing, sometimes dressed in white robes and gowns.

      That’s the data, as hard as it may be to accept scientifically (and it is) that is what they tell us. Personally, I can’t see how Orch Or could even theoretically account for that, if you understand my meaning.

      I suppose they could ignore what the experiencers tell us but that’s not scientific either. It’s seems to be something way more strange than we can account for. Just my thoughts, I wouldn’t want to upset Stuart, though.

      Liked by 1 person

      • Yitz on said:

        Doesn’t seem that Stuart Hameroff is going to reply. He usually does; probably just got busy. It was worth a try.

        Like

  23. Yitz on said:

    I wrote him a new email. He’ll respond soon and I’ll post.

    Like

  24. Paul on said:

    Can’t wait fir the aware 2 results

    Liked by 1 person

  25. The analogy of we are in the dream the matrix so to speak is quite a creative idea. There is indeed a strong possibility with evidence growing to support it that there is an actual reality then that of which we see when we are alive. I just hope that if I do die (I don’t plan to. I plan to live for a very long time through use of rejuvenation therapy and other advancements that will likely hit the market in the near future) that the reality I find myself in is actually one worth living life for. And going by most testimonies that luckily seems to be the case. Thank goodness. I wouldn’t want to wake up to find myself in a life draining test tube manned by death machines in an apocalyptic future.

    Like

    • Also it is possible the reason behind the denial of the evidence to some form of continuity stems from fear. There are people who find idea in the comfort of a belief of erasure. Since to them they sleep. They don’t dream and billions of years pass without knowing. They find comfort in that. There are actually people who fear the prospect of more life after this one since it means to them more suffering or the possibility of running out of ideas and being bored. For me though I don’t know how they believe such a thing and are able to sleep well at night with that mindset/belief. The thought of erasure just I think erases the point of living. Not only that but it’s a slap in the face because time will continue while you are in eternal dreamless sleep and you like everyone and everything will eventually be forgotten and then there will be nothing left. It’s a very grim and sad belief in my opinion. I don’t believe said belief. I like to cling to hope there is a purpose there is something out there. We don’t know fully what it is and we probably won’t ever know. But we may be able to find some clues to what it is. Though many answers will still remain unanswered.

      Liked by 1 person

      • @TSoul

        There is actually no good reason why we shouldn’t believe there is a meaning and purpose to life. The situation we find ourselves in now is the direct result of the rigid dogma of critical rationalism, which has pretended to have all the answers based on some admittedly spectacular successes (the advance of science) which we wouldn’t want to be without.

        Critical rationalism, a little like Marxism, has led to it’s principles being “enshrined in stone” (unchallengeable). I would say the majority probably accept that there is no ultimate meaning to life and that death is the end and they would advance that opinion based on what they believe to be sound science and sincerely state in good faith that the evidence is clear and unequivocal.

        In fact the evidence to support that belief is far from unequivocal and actually points to the opposite, but because of it’s dogmatic principles (critical rationalism), that evidence is decreed not to exist. Physicist Sean Carroll, for instance, believes he doesn’t even need to look at it.

        Mainstream science is infallible and has ruled it out. Sounds familiar.

        Liked by 1 person

      • TSoul. I agree with how you feel, and from the accounts of NDEs I think the idea of getting bored or running out of ideas is put to rest as there is limitless knowledge and landscapes to explore on the other side.

        Like

    • Anthony on said:

      TrascendentSoul
      There are people who don’t want to die and still don’t believe in life after death. Whatever happens when our time comes we have to be calm. It is possible that what happens is like when you go to sleep and for hours you do not dream or realize anything, absolute nothingness (like before you were born and your first life memories). It may also be that consciousness extends for a few moments after death and we can perceive certain things, or these are generated by the brain (the latest comments from the Parnia laboratory seem to go that way, and that is what I believe the most). And another possibility is that consciousness is a universal property that we still do not know and that interacts with us and the rest of living beings through the brain, this being, as has already been said, a kind of radio or receiver.
      Whatever it is, it’s a fascinating subject

      Liked by 1 person

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        @Tony

        I am really curious why our consciousness would extend for few moments when the brain is ceased, and why it is like that? You know, your brain is not working, and how the hell you and yourself can be alive even for few seconds. This energy in our brain and neurons is being consumed really really fast so if that did not die after for example 30 seconds after cardiac arrest and when your brain is offline, why your consciousness cannot live for ever, becouse there is no brain activity which would allow our consciousness to exist.

        Like

      • The flaw in this is there is no form of cohesive brain consciousness activity during the time of death. You can’t even dismiss it as false as you’d need activity to hallucinate in the first place. There is something else at play here but people keep staying back rather then exploring other possibilities and keep trying to defend the brain is causing everything.

        Like

  26. Wiktor fiegler on said:

    https://www.menshealth.com/uk/mental-strength/a39659532/dying-brain-waves/ i have found this on twitter and i am curious, is there something that would suggest that Parnia became materialist or is there something we do not know?

    Like

    • This is nothing new, I don’t think Parnia has turned into a materialist or he ever will. This finding was already widely discuss in the previous posts. The most recent posts from the lab continues to maintain a neutral stance on the nature of consciousness and he has already mentioned in the most recent press release that the RED features reported by cardiac arrest survivors do not coincide with hallucinations. I think this is a good indicator of his true stance on this contentious debate, albeit subtle. Not to mention a couple of recent experiments have added weight to the idea of quantum consciousness. Meaning it is almost certain that brain function alone cannot be the cause of consciences emergence. Consciousness theories such as Integrated Information theory will die slowly and painfully in the near future.

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Wiktor fiegler

      It’s difficult to know if she is putting words into Parnia’s mouth with that article or just “adding” to what he’s said with her own thoughts. I’m not going to ask her, either way.

      Whatever, I can assure you that it’s all just unscientific and pointless speculation. There are scores of reasons why some gamma activity appeared in that man’s brain which have nothing to do with consciousness, only the various chemical reactions (of an injured dying brain)

      I’m amazed but not surprised that this nothing story is receiving such interest. It’s almost the equivalent of the worst ever “act” that clambered onto a stage in search of applause.

      There isn’t anything there, period he couldn’t have had any physiological consciousness, he was under burst suppression (they told us that) and his brain was massively damaged. That’s it, (loud boos ring out as they should)…next !!

      Of course, you don’t need to accept what I say, why not ask the experts.

      Liked by 2 people

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        Thank you Tim
        After all i have read i have got one conclusion, there is something going on we and we have no idea how this is going and what does it mean, but everything suggest that something is going on, and when i say something, i mean that our consciousness is such a tricky and if i can use this world “transcendental thing”

        Liked by 1 person

      • No worries, Wiktor !

        And yes, there’s definitely something going on; we can say that with absolute certainty.

        Liked by 1 person

  27. Nemesiss on said:

    Gamma waves explain nothing about ecms.

    Like

  28. Alan on said:

    Here’s something relevant re nonlocal consciousness … a just recent US Defense Intelligence Agency podcast on remote viewing. Psychics, paranormal, does it get better than that? Another nail in I thought against materialism.

    Space is like a mind, ha, ha.

    https://podcasts.google.com/feed/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZHZpZHNodWIubmV0L3Jzcy9wb2RjYXN0LzQyNw/episode/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZHZpZHNodWIubmV0L3BvZGNhc3QvZG93bmxvYWQvODA2ODAvRE9EXzEwOTAzMDMzNy5tcDM?sa=X&ved=0CAUQkfYCahcKEwjQ5IXWnJH4AhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQCg

    Like

  29. David on said:

    Skinwalkers at the Pentagon

    Like

  30. Yitz on said:

    @Ben, if the soul is quantum (i.e., Orch OR), then the “Being of Light” might also be quantum (i.e., natural). Not a very traditional approach but one worth pondering about nonetheless.

    Like

    • @Yitz. The being of light seems to exist outside the space and time dimensions of the “natural” universe, as evidenced by the fact exports from NDEs point to meetings with the Being Of Light tending to be after the tunnel, which is often described in a way that suggests travelling away from this reality to a different one. That’s my thought anyway.

      Like

      • I’m still trying to get my head around how the authors of the guidelines paper are going to ‘square’ some of the elements they’ve described (such as the being of light) with science. I mean many of them are just going to say…that’s not science, it’s faith (eg Kevin Nelson and co).

        Some of the stuff in that paper, I never would have thought I’d see referred to in a scientific publication. I think they may have to eventually tone it down. What do others think ?

        Like

      • Consistently repeated descriptive accounts of recollections that people have while dead are scientific data related to the physiological condition they are in and so must be included. What they are and what they mean is open to subjective interpretation, and can be discussed from a philosophical perspective…these discussions do not belong in scientific literature, and it would benefit the Parnia lab if they avoided venturing into this. Report the facts, including what people says bout their experience…leave the rest to others.

        Like

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        What if this heavenly realm is a quantum realm. just speculating but it is really interesting for me.

        Like

      • Alan on said:

        Tim, they (Parnia-type teams) have to report what people are consistently seeing and it’s then up to physics theorists to do some work. This was said by mathematician Prof. Ivor Grattan-Guinness who was a witness to the lights seen at the Scole experiment in that physicists were well aware of issues like multiple dimensions and parallel universes *in theory* but there’s the stigma issue getting involved. The lights he saw moved intelligently, responded to requests then vanished “somewhere”.

        As to your academic friend my answer would be that “Inquiry” is broader than the present scientific meas. method (you can’t measure a light being using a photometer! – only consciousness can see it) and we could be at the very beginning of some completely new journey in science. Anyway, not talking of the supernatural is more of a “meme” and surely a challenge to some scientists egos who would like to think they are the ones giving knowledge out. Other scientists are willing to recognise the so called supernatural.

        Like

      • Anthony on said:

        Alan
        I think you should inform yourself a little better about the Scole experiment and the fraud of the mediums. As I say, if even the people who are dedicated and believe in the paranormal consider it to be a real fraud
        An experiment of such relevance would have been tried to be replicated on many more occasions and by much more reliable people, what a coincidence that the ghosts would not allow the recording of anything about it ahahah
        But believe what you want of course, as if you believe in Santa Claus! Have a good weekend

        Like

    • Anthony on said:

      Alan
      Even among the paranormal world, the Scole experiment is considered to be fraudulent, it should not be given credibility beyond the fact that some scientist participated and it was all different tricks of illusionism. In my opinion, I don’t like to call these things “paranormal”. It is something scientific that will probably be discovered over time, and perhaps change the scientific paradigm

      Like

      • Alan on said:

        Anthony, that is something you’ve just made up.

        There was no fraud detected over many sittings (sceptics agree with this) over several years with the light phenomena the most spectacular. You can easily find about these lights on the dedicated Scole website. Unless you’ve done some work and actually read the massive Scole Report (which I have) with all it’s details, you’ve no leg to stand on.
        I was on talking terms with SPR investigators Montague Keen and Prof. Arthur Ellison who explained to me what they witnessed and they challenged anyone to replicate the phenomena. There were no takers. I was also at the Scole Debate day in 1999 where I heard Richard Wiseman saying the results were “very impressive” and offered no counter to the range of phenomena. And a professional magician stated he would not be able to reproduce what was seen under the given conditions.

        It’s easy to blather on about “fraud”. But *you* would have to provide mechanisms for your claim. For instance, the light phenomena would need tactile (the lights touched people and entered their bodies and cupped hands) holographic instrumentation (never even now been invented) operated in the presence of the investigators by the four husband/wives mediums seated around a table in a small sealed cellar. And in darkness. Lazy comment Anthony.

        Like

  31. Yitz on said:

    *than

    Like

  32. @Ben

    Ben said >”What they are and what they mean is open to subjective interpretation, and can be discussed from a philosophical perspective”

    and > “these discussions do not belong in scientific literature, and it would benefit the Parnia lab if they avoided venturing into this. Report the facts, including what people say about their experience…leave the rest to others.”

    Good points ! My oldest friend who is now at the top in academia, always impressed on me not to drag him into conversations along these lines. He said it is literally …and I do mean literally… forbidden in academia to invoke anything which smacks of the supernatural.

    Like

  33. Yitz on said:

    @Ben, you’re right. I’ll revise.

    Like

  34. @Alan

    Alan said >” they (Parnia-type teams) have to report what people are consistently seeing and it’s then up to physics theorists to do some work. ”

    Thanks, Alan, yes I agree but my point really was that they didn’t necessarily have to highlight it to such a degree. They could have referred to it more obliquely or subtlety, I think. That’s not a criticism of them, I just don’t want hard nosed sceptics taking the mickey out of my favourite subject, if you see what I mean. 😉

    Like

    • Alan on said:

      Ok Tim, but I hope it spurs interest to investigate these “realms”, otherwise we could be left with really good data (if they’ve hits) and a gaping hole in knowledge.

      Like

      • @Alan

        Alan said >”Ok Tim, but I hope it spurs interest to investigate these “realms”, otherwise we could be left with really good data (if they’ve hits) and a gaping hole in knowledge.”

        Hi, Alan ! It’s simply just what I found to be the case with academics etc. These phenomena are not allowed to exist and furthermore it makes them angry. I’m glad there are people like you and others that are pushing back against authority and refusing to be cowed by them.

        We need a change of paradigm or at least an alteration, whereby we have a different understanding of life and death and what it means. But that doesn’t mean we have to abandon everything, of course and we certainly don’t want a return of magic.

        Like

      • @Tim. Everything is magic when you truly understand it. The way DNA is translated by proteins, the fact the universe with trillions of galaxies each containing billions of stars came from a point of singularity is magic, the love we sometimes feel, the beauty of nature…it is all magic, understanding some of it does make it any less so, in fact as a scientist, it makes it more so.

        We do need a paradigm shift in human thinking, one that blends the old understandings of previous generations with our modern insights into science. Truth cannot be suppressed forever, and while truth is something that is not always possible to prove, it is nonetheless true,and we are approaching a time when some ancient truths that had been discounted by materialism will be proven and become fact.

        Exciting times!

        Like

      • Alan on said:

        Thanks Tim, I always wonder why a biological robot (which is how an academic denying these experiences must view himself) is so angry. Maybe they secretly know there’s something to it.
        And I’ll certainly defend the reputations of the (now deceased) investigators I knew – above in my reply to Anthony. Debunkers just don’t think clearly! It’s very simple!! It’s either real or not (there’s no middle option) and the “not” option which generates so much waffle from them leaves them with a massive “burden” to show their case.

        Same with NDEs – where’s the evidence from debunkers proving their case? How do they explain *everything* about the experiences in terms of chemistry and biology? I haven’t seen their work.

        Like

  35. Wiktor fiegler on said:

    https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01424/full. i have found this. I know that this is old, but this disturbs me, and makes me feel unconfortable with my views. Please help?

    Like

    • Charlie on said:

      It was another study which the media latched onto but falls short to explain the experience once seasoned NDE researchers reviewed it. Essentially the overlap in experiences stops at things that make NDEs particularly unique, such as seeing deceased relatives, reaching a point of no return, and undergoing verifiable out of body experiences. There is no evidence significant amounts of DMT is even released by the brain. So yes, you go on a heck of a trip that involves ego dissolution while on DMT but your brain is still very much alive and you don’t have these unique transcendent experiences particular to NDEs. It’s another attempt to explain the process that comes close by doesn’t quite cut it. But it’s easy for the mainstream to just accept

      Like

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        so is life after death possible and likely to exist?

        Like

      • Charlie on said:

        No one really “knows” and it’s not an answer we can find on a message board. But so far the materialist explanations fall short to explain the transcendent experiences felt by millions of people. You can “mimic” all kinds of things with chemicals but does that mean it’s a true experience? Doesn’t taking antidepressants just “mimic” the feeling of a non-depressive state? Does that mean all there is to happiness is a chemical in your brain? I don’t think so. And many scientists, doctors, philosophers, religious leaders, and everyday folks feel the same, if that means anything

        Liked by 1 person

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        So there is no need to worry, these things are probably not due to DMT in the brain or any other psychodelic?

        Like

      • @Ben

        Ben said > “Everything is magic when you truly understand it. The way DNA is translated by proteins, the fact the universe with trillions of galaxies each containing billions of stars came from a point of singularity is magic, the love we sometimes feel, the beauty of nature…it is all magic, understanding some of it does make it any less so, in fact as a scientist, it makes it more so.”

        Yes, I agree ! Very well put, too.

        Ben said >”We do need a paradigm shift in human thinking, one that blends the old understandings of previous generations with our modern insights into science. Truth cannot be suppressed forever, and while truth is something that is not always possible to prove, it is nonetheless true, and we are approaching a time when some ancient truths that had been discounted by materialism will be proven and become fact. Exciting times!

        Yes ! And very eloquent !

        Liked by 1 person

    • Charlie on said:

      I really am no expert. But some disagree with the psychedelic interpretation for seemingly valid reasons

      Like

      • Wiktor fiegler on said:

        i am curious what Ben and Tim will say

        Like

      • @Wiktor fiegler

        DMT is only found in tiny trace amounts in the human body. Some researchers have hypothesised that it occurs naturally in the pineal gland and this is therefore somehow (they don’t say how or why) released at death and produces the phenomena found in NDE’s etc.

        However, DMT is short acting and large amounts are required to have any effect and provide the “trips” that are reported. Amounts which simply don’t exist in the human body, not even remotely near enough.

        Secondly, those volunteers in that study were actually given large amounts of DMT. No one administers DMT to cardiac arrest patients. Thirdly, they would have been aware of why they were being given the drug which ironically (for sceptics) brings in the possibility of suggestion playing a part(which in effect discounts the study)

        Fourthly, cardiac arrest patients are dead. You can inject them with whatever you like, but it won’t have the slightest effect on them without a functioning brain.

        Fifthly, DMT cannot and never could explain the veridical perception reported in cardiac arrest NDE’s. It’s a non starter that desperate sceptics keep dragging up.

        Like

      • @Alan

        Alan said >”Same with NDEs – where’s the evidence from debunkers proving their case? How do they explain *everything* about the experiences in terms of chemistry and biology? I haven’t seen their work.

        They can’t explain it, Alan. But they would say it’s up to us (proponents) to prove them wrong. Many debunkers, if not the majority, are ideologically driven. It’s not about the evidence, it’s about what it may mean and they don’t like it.

        Like

  36. Wiktor fiegler on said:

    Were there any cases of Red where someone had brain blown but managed to save and remembered everything that happened in this Transcendental Plane?

    Like

    • Nemesis on said:

      @Tim
      I love the comment on DMT an exquisite explanation

      Liked by 1 person

    • @Wiktor fiegler

      “Were there any cases of Red where someone had brain blown but managed to save and remembered everything that happened in this Transcendental Plane?

      If the television set is smashed, you’re not going to be able to hear or see any programmes. So, no.

      Like

    • Good question. Are you saying if you surgically repair the organ after it suffered extensive damage from say a gunshot and bought a person back from the brink of death. I would like to see if there were some instances of that. But it would of course be difficult to bring a patient back from that.

      Like

  37. We need to really open up our minds here. Seriously we can’t just cling to the whole prospect that this is all fabricated by our own organs. Organs cannot perceive thought. WE perceive thought. We the individuals. Not our organs. We need to stop looking at the brain and instead look at ourselves. Who we truly are. If we keep being slaves to the brain ideology we are going to be moving backwards instead of forwards especially since there is growing evidence that there is indeed something else at play here. What that is exactly we don’t know. We don’t know who or what we truly are. We don’t truly know what reality is. That’s the whole point why this research exists. If not to find answers at least get clues to our existence and move closer to solving the mystery hopefully.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yitz on said:

      TS, your brain is in deep communication with all your organs, all the time. Your organs have more impact on life than was first thought by scientists.

      Like

    • Nemesis on said:

      Itz: I still maintain that inside the brain there are quantum processes and orch or is proof of this but does not mean that it has to be in the microtubules may be in another area more research is needed.

      Like

      • Nemesis, you can “maintain” or believe as much as you like, but there is zero evidence, let alone proof, supporting the theory that organised thought is the result of random quantum mechanical processes. The ORCH theory really is clutching a straws in my opinion.

        Like

    • Good find Yitz. My honest thoughts…this experiment points to a number of aspects of the ORCH theory that have always made me regard it as verging on theoretical fantasy rather physics. In particular, the unstable and delicate nature of these the theoretical quantum processes are not conducive with a biological construct like the brain. Moreover, for this mechanism to have appeared through natural means would require it developing by the process of evolution. This is inconceivable. Even if the ORCH OR theory explains aspects of consciousness, it would actually point to the possibility of a designed process.

      Like

      • I suppose on the physical science thing all biological things come down to chemistry which come down to physics and by extention quantum physics which in turn go down maths which in turns philosophy….suppose all things linked on some form of fashion and not clear cut anyhow. Orch theory as you mentioned Ben perhaps just another that just explains a link as opposed to the thing (mind) itself.

        As a side note I find it interesting we are attempting to grapple with things like AI and yet after many milliia of trying still to grasp the mind all we do is increase possibilities of what it us as opposed to what it actually is.

        Like

  38. Nemesis on said:

    Ben:You’re also right, I hope that in some future it will be possible to know what consciousness is.

    Liked by 1 person

  39. Yitz on said:

    Of note from the article:

    “The two theories are often referred to by the umbrella term, the ‘Diósi-Penrose theory.’ But behind the joint name there is an important difference, notes Curceanu. Diósi’s approach predicts that collapse would be accompanied by the spontaneous emission of a small amount of radiation, just large enough to be detected by cutting edge experiments.”

    “. . . In 2020, the team reported in Nature Physics that their negative result had helped them rule out the simplest version of the Diósi-Penrose model.”

    “. . . Penrose’s original collapse model, unlike Diósi’s, did not predict spontaneous radiation, so has not been ruled out. The new paper also briefly discusses how a gravity-related collapse model might realistically be modified. ‘Such a revised model, which we are working on within the FQXi financed project, could leave the door open for Orch OR theory,’ Curceanu says.”

    So yes, the door is still open for Orch-OR.

    Also, a reply via email from Dr. Hameroff:

    “Completely wrong; hiding the results. No radiation, as Penrose predicted, but retroactivity required. Writing a response now.”

    Like

  40. Charlie on said:

    Not sure if you saw this. Link to the official response to the straw man study from Greyson, Von Limmel, and Fenwick. Seems to be a respectful dismantling of the conclusions.
    https://iands.org/

    Like

  41. Alan on said:

    Since things seem a little slow on comments and re Anthony’s comments above just thought to post this on the Scole Study Day in 1999 which I went to. It just popped up on the SPR twitter site. The view by a maths professor (who saw and handled directly the little lights that moved between group members) that we may need to study parallel universes (so I guess other dimensions of reality) to explain does chime with what’s been discussed here.

    Who knows if these lights are physical realizations of other souls? Or something else? How did they get summoned? They behave intelligently, a bit like UFO lights chased by jet fighters, often small too, but significantly bigger. I remember a great comment by former CIA Director John Brennan last year who said some sightings could be “a different form of life”. So I really wonder we should expand what “life” could really be in what seems a myriad of manifestations.

    Liked by 2 people

    • We are living in very interesting times.

      Like

      • Alan on said:

        Indeed! I wasn’t sure how you’d react to this 🙂 but I was struck by Brennan’s remark from someone at such a level. He is genuinely thoughtful and eloquent.

        Like

    • UFOs are often bought up quite a bit. Thought he idea of aliens are highly unlikely though I won’t rule out the idea that intelligent human life exists on other planets. If other humans that are more advanced then us go from their planet to earth we can set up peaceful communications with them and form an alliance between planets. This could also greatly advance our technology and industry.

      Like

      • Alan on said:

        TS, the problem is intelligent technological aliens will be millions of years older than us due to the age differences of stars. Given the many sightings it seems reasonable this isn’t our planet anyway but shared and it seems reasonable to me they or many types arrived a very long time ago.

        Like

      • Why are they so shy? Maybe they are really tiny. Seriously, the whole thing is a massive puzzle with no answers at the moment.

        Like

      • Alan on said:

        It’s like a scattergun scenario! There are triangle sightings (David Marler world expert) with ridiculous flight performances (and all the other crazy UFO abilities), the Ariel Phenomenon with the school kids seeing physical small beings (recent documentary film out), the Scole lights imply intelligence in little packets (blue-green balls if I remember right), the Skinwalker Ranch seems to react to experimental investigations and Dr. Travis Taylor (who’s the external scientist brought in and has has just revealed himself as the Pentagon former chief UFO scientist – see David below) has said electronic equipment fails repeatedly at the moment they literally start to try to record. Taylor also said he was recruited as the Pentagon scientist in charge in the light of him being at SWR. We’re in Indiana Jones type territory here.
        It’s wild Orson! And he and the team still after 3 years cannot figure out the Ranch. It *seems* there’s an intelligence there operating in the region of the Ranch that doesn’t want to be observed. They shone a green military grade laser at night at a region of empty space 5000 feet above the Ranch where wild anomalies occur. The laser stopped! In space. Then it bent at the end. Then it split into two beams. What invisible phenomenon could split a laser? Travis and team saw this and they showed it. A team of amateur but expert astronomers were there at the time and their very high tech telescopes failed electronically when they tried to observe this sky region. And that’s just pointing not scanning. They used the laser as a last resort to kind of “poke” this region.
        The term “precognitive sentient phenomena” had been coined by a previous team a few years back. It fits. Like something is watching and interfering.
        What could be the common denominator in all this? I think it’s consciousness in many forms/abilities and what we disparagingly call psychic. But also the material in some new physics. Also parallel interfering realities as Prof. Ivor Grattan-Guinness inferred.

        Again, long, but we have to be bold to include all phenomena to find something common, I guess.

        Like

      • Alan on said:

        I’ve heard about some kind of non overt “interference” re the shyness. Whatever’s going on a mass landing seems not their style/method.

        Like

  42. David on said:

    Travis Taylor just went public .He wrote part of the UFO report from last year. He said the consciousness has to be quantum and may be in some was interacting with another universe. Look up KLAS and look for George Knapp on Twitter . He has the whole interview.

    Like

    • Alan on said:

      I saw that David. The guy’s a living legend.

      Like

    • Dave on said:

      Unfortunately in my country it is not possible to see the pages of that site. Could you send a screen or copy the text related to consciousness and paste it here? Thank you

      Liked by 1 person

      • Alan on said:

        Dave, these are the interviews with Dr. Travis Taylor in order

        Not just a TV scientist: Dr. Travis Taylor’s deep roots with NASA, DoD

        How the UAP Task Force evaluated UFO cases

        Travis Taylor – 3

        Travis Taylor – 4

        I’d have to look again re the consciousness part but these are the very recent George Knapp interviews.

        Liked by 1 person

  43. David on said:

    Gary Nolans Twitter is worth a look . He is taking on a smear job on Travis. He is opposite of Parnias low key strategy.

    Like

    • Alan on said:

      Thanks, I follow Dr. Nolan! He’s like Travis, Mr. Honesty! There’s just been a hit piece on Taylor by Keith Kloor in the prestigious Science from the AAAS. Why they would allow this guy to write implies a kickback. I mean he has zero science qualifications and from what I’ve seen of him is out to cause trouble. But he’s just been caught out by misquoting a Pentagon spokesman in his piece. And he did a hit on Avi Loeb.

      I get what you say of Dr. Parnia but him and his team are in a different position in that the US Gov have clearly said they have many UAPs which are physical and unidentified and detected on multiple systems and pilot’s eyeballs. Parnia is after a more subtle phenomenon – I guess!

      Like

  44. Just a definition system proposal regarding Terminal Lucidity and all that

    https://alz-journals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/alz.12709

    Like

  45. Mary on said:

    A little bit off topic: Anyone heard about this?
    https://www.thesoulphonefoundation.org/soulphone-update/

    Like

    • Actually this is nothing new against the Global Workspace Theory, Stuart Hameroff has already cited in the past that professional athletes are able to respond well before our “conscious brain” becomes fully aware of perceived information and it was a strong case to support the quantum consciousness theory. Another good case to mention is the recent revision to the split brain experiment, the test subject had his brain separated but was still able to perceive information on the opposing brain hemisphere, which is impossible according to the Global work space theory and IIS.

      Like

      • I don’t think more can be emphasized about the split brain experiment and how it virtually falsifies IIT and GWS. My neurologist friend’s response when I asked him about his reaction to the study was “finally, someone stating the obvious answer”. I’d also say that the cojoined at the head twins in Canada, who share neural connections can have shared perception, and share thoughts, but have their own individual agency, intentionality, and psyche, again, all which should not exist under GWS/IIT.

        Like

  46. Frank on said:

    Hi all, this comment is not exactly related to the topic but I think it’s worth sharing anyway.

    I have had minor surgery under ‘sedation’ recently. Sedation is comparable to being asleep, but the stuff they put in your veins also inhibits memory formation. And boy, it works: Just before I was put asleep the doctor told me they would wake me up right after the procedure to assist them in getting a bandage around my waist. I remember waking up in the recovery room, with the bandage already around my waist. But when I asked the nurse (who was present during the procedure) how they managed to put the bandage on, she told me they woke me up and I was happy to assist.
    I have zero memory of this.. none at all.. Which shows that during sedation, the ‘gates to long term memory formation’ can indeed be closed.

    A second observation: When they wheeled my bed into the operating room while I was still awake, I was mainly focused on the people there and not on the equipment. So I can imagine someone with an OBE would not immediately notice a sign somewhere on the equipment. In a stressful situation, people might tend to look for other people in order to calm down instead of being focused on equipment.

    During my short stay and recovery I wandered around in a ‘lounge room’ with other patients present. There was a man there telling about his heart attach he had about 10 years ago. He was in his garage when he felt ‘like an elephant was sitting on his chest’. He managed to make an emergency call and open the door, and then ‘the lights went out’. Afterwards he heard they had been giving CPR for 20 minutes before he came by.

    So, I decided to ask him a question: “Do you remember anything from the period you were given CPR?” To my surprise his immediate answer was: “Oh yes, I had a Near Death Experience. The light was really bright, like a welder’s torch, and I heard the voice of my mother saying I had to get back because my son needs me.” His son had a handicap.
    There were other people present and the conversation went into another direction but I managed to pop in a second question: “So, no more fear of death for you then?”. His answer: “No, not at all.” He told how his brother-in-law had a period where he was very afraid to die, so he had given him a DVD about NDEs to calm him with the remark “just look at this, you don’t need to be afraid”.

    He also made a remark later: “This has noting to do with religion at all”. I did not manage to ask him why.

    Liked by 1 person

  47. Andrew on said:

    With regard to life review, is anyone aware of any studies that have examined whether people who have life reviews ever report anything about non-pet animals in their reviews. As reviewers often report experiencing the pain they have caused other people in life, do they also report pain they have inflicted upon animals? And specifically does this extend to animals that they have eaten during their lives, including animals they may have killed themselves (eg fishing, hunting) or even to animals killed on their behalf and which they consumed (eg a beefburger)? And if so, how far down the evolutionary tree do these feelings of suffering extend?

    Liked by 1 person

    • Great question Andrew. I have no idea, but if there is an answer, someone here will know.

      Like

    • anna on said:

      This is a great question. I am really curious about this as well.

      Like

    • Hey Andrew, I remember a scene around the dinner table in the film Notting Hill. One girl Hugh Grant’s friends are trying to fix him with says she’s a fruitarian – she only eats veg. and fruit (no meat) that have fallen from the tree, hence dead already. I guess that’s the only way out of this problem. Good point though.

      Like

    • Hi Andrew Ben and all, if I’m reading you right and I apologise if I’m wrong, but the question you’ve raised there is broadly centred around the unacceptable suffering of animals. I’ve never read a life review where someone recounted their own cruelty to animals… specifically, that is but I have seen it ‘shamefully’ alluded to occasionally. Logically, it must be in the life review, as everything is.

      Tom Sawyer, an American mechanic who had a profound NDE when the truck that he was working under came off the jacks and crushed his chest, said that not just the welfare of animals is important, but all living things. Even if you swat a fly, or wipe away the microscopic bugs on your eyelids, it’s there in the review because everything is, it’s all available for viewing if you want to, that is. Or maybe if you don’t want to.

      He wasn’t saying that we are condemned for killing microbes, we can’t help it obviously, but the broad point is that it seems that we see everything in as much detail as we want or are shown. I would say the vast majority of people that have had NDE’s, won’t kill or cause harm to anything (even insects or worms etc). I have to admit that this has rubbed off on me, but I also have to say that it’s very difficult to live without harming anything and there are obvious flaws in blaming humans if “god” created us, because he must surely have known we would.

      As to the factory farming of animals, I believe it ought to stop or at the very least they should be much better cared for (some producers are ethical of course but nowhere near enough) but then you have the problem of feeding the masses and I don’t think it can be done without animals sadly having to be killed for their meat.

      It’s a highly unsatisfactory situation (life on earth) and I don’t have the answers. Could we live on plant based foods alone ? Would it be acceptable to have mass starvation of humans to protect animals which would mean stopping breeding them and sending them back out to the wild. Is that preferable for animals as nature is cruel anyway. I hope one day I will understand why. Hope this helps but somehow, I doubt it.

      Liked by 1 person

      • anna on said:

        Thanks Tim, I really enjoyed reading your post and appreciate your thoughtfulness about this topic. I definitely think animals’ suffering matters but see your point about whether it is realistic to imagine all humans becoming plant based.

        My own perspective is that moving towards eating less meat and treating animals better is probably more attainable. And since we are constantly breeding farmed animals we would just need to reduce the numbers bred into existence so we wouldn’t necessarily need to release any into the wild or cause mass starvation – we could just start by getting rid of the worst practices on farms and reduce our consumption of animal products. About a third of all animal products are just thrown out so honestly people could simply buy less, go without a few days a week and introduce more plant based meals into their diets and still make a real difference. Get rid of extreme confinement (gestation stalls, battery cages etc) and ensure animals are stunned and completely dead before any “processing” begins. There is a book called slaughterhouse with some very disturbing testimony and facts about how often this is not the case. It comes down to compassion.

        My other hope is for “lab grown” or cultured meat. I am very hopeful this could come to fruition in the near future and allow for an incredible transformation in our relationship to animals.

        There is a great book called “the divine life of animals” that includes some interesting stories of encounters with animal ghosts (usually pets) that people have reported. There is also a great deal of philosophical discussions on the subject – I found it a great read and would highly recommend it to others.

        Like

      • Hi Tim, Anna, Alan and Nemesis and others who are talking about this or following this.

        It is a very challenging topic. I occasionally use fly spray, and a part of me feels horrible guilt as I hear them buzzing maniacally in agony.

        I guess the key point is that we must show compassion to every creature, even ones that we need to kill. That is the lesson from NDEs. It is interesting, my mother who is very compassionate can’t kill flies.

        On the other side of the equation, in my work I sometimes see the obsession with keeping alive for as long as possible as lacking compassion. This is a great fault of many doctors whose only goal is to save life. They see a disease or problem, they want to treat it, but sometimes forget about the human and the soul. Again, I bring my mother into this. Yesterday we visited a dermatologist together. My mother has a pre-cancerous mark on her face,and has had it for 20 years. The doctor and the medical guidelines said that she should have it removed as there is a chance it could become cancerous. My Mum has had a number of surgeries, she is 82, and one of her faults is that she is a little vain still…but in an endearing way. She doesn’t want the surgery. The doctor, was quite frustrated with her resistance to his recommendation, and was clearly losing patience. I was siding with him, but in a kinder way, because like him, I am a scientist…I see a disease, I see a solution, I want to deploy the solution. However, I noticed that the nurse was clearly uncomfortable and afterwards my Mum asked her some questions about complications and scars, ones that the doctor was less eager to answer. The nurse was honest in her responses and could see the potential lack of benefit that such a procedure would provide to a frail 82 year old lad who had already had 2 surgeries for cancer and has heart issues.

        Over a glass of wine with me afterwards, my mother chose not to go ahead.

        It is all about compassion and love. That is what we learn from NDE accounts (and indeed the teachings of the prophet I follow). It appears that this clearly extends beyond compassion to humans and that animals are sentient beings. We do not know their level of consciousness, but we know they experience pain, and so we should try to avoid inflicting unnecessary pain, even when on the occasions when we must kill.

        I am going to put away my fly spray and fit screens.

        Like

  48. Nemesis on said:

    I believe that if there is a hunter he had an ecm and no longer ate carno since he saw the suffering he caused the animal.

    Liked by 1 person

    • anna on said:

      That’s very interesting. Just wondering if you happen to recall where you saw this story. I did a google search but couldn’t find anything.

      Like

      • @anna

        Thanks for that, anna, food for thought, literally ! I actually posted a reply yesterday but it didn’t come up, oh well, no worries.

        Like

    • @Ben

      Hi Ben, I hope your mother is okay and lives as long as she feels she ought to. The pre-cancerous areas on older people are very common and many older people probably don’t even know about them, particularly men if they’re on the top of the head etc. I don’t think they can be sure about these things until they take a biopsy, of course, but if your mother is frail, I can’t really see the point.

      If she’s had it for 20 years I would say it’s unlikely it’s going to develop now. These things are really quite quick in many cases. A friend of ours died from a small mole within a year, so if it’s been there that long…

      There is an unusual book called ” The twenty fifth man”, I recently read which drew my attention to some of these areas. The twenty fifth man was American (wrongly incarcerated) convict Ed Morrell, who was horrifically tortured in San Quentin prison.

      Amongst other deprivations, he was trussed up as tight as possible in a sort of straight jacket, in which the prison guards would beat him and pour water on him to shrink the jacket even further, and leave him for days on his own to be crushed to within an inch of his life (over a period of years).

      Whilst he was broken and emaciated in this filthy dungeon, he became acutely intimate with the flies that would land on his bloody face and nose and his senses were so acute and tuned, due to his nearness to death, that he claimed to be able to see that the flies all had very distinct personalities (intelligences) and were actually fascinating creatures, not pests who need to be squashed. They became his companions.

      He also realised each time he was close to death, he could leave behind his body and travel wherever he wanted to. Interestingly he was able to see many events going on in the world outside which he could later verify actually occurred.

      Morrell was eventually pardoned and when he turned up in England, he met the writer Jack London who used his out of body travels in his book “Star Rover”.
      It’s not everyone’s cup of tea but some of the insights match perfectly with NDE research. He discovered for instance (he claimed) that returning love for hatred and violence was the secret key to life, not seeking retribution, as Christ taught. More effective than anything else.

      A very difficult thing to do when you’ve been badly wronged and unnatural I would argue, but nevertheless he did it when he was pardoned and caused laws to be changed. There, that’s something for a Friday morning, lol 😉

      Liked by 1 person

      • Thanks Tim, great comments. Agree with you about my mother.

        Like

      • Thanks so much Ben for your comment and best wishes to your Mother. My Mom is also in her eighties and she has expressed similar concerns.

        I really like what you wrote about how important love and compassion are to NDE accounts and Jesus’ teachings. I’m trying to remember this more in my life.

        I also loved what you wrote about the importance of extending this compassion to animals by trying to avoid causing them unnecessary suffering.

        Liked by 1 person

      • That sounds like an amazing book Tim. I am definitely going to check it out. So impressive he was able to return hate with love, especially in those circumstances! Thanks for sharing this info. Sounds like a fascinating read!

        Like

      • anna on said:

        @tim thanks also for your earlier comment. I replied to thank you for the discussion but it came up on the next page 😊

        Like

      • anna on said:

        p.s. also thanks for reminding me to not forget insects. I overlook them often but its important to remember to uphold the dignity of even the humblest of God’s creations.

        (sorry for so many posts… it’s just a subject I have a lot of passion for. Thanks everyone for such an insightful discussion!)

        Liked by 1 person

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