AwareofAware

Evolving news on the science, writing and thinking about Near Death Experiences (NDEs)

New Research From The Parnia Lab

Thanks to SeanD for spotting this. Despite googling for Parnia every day, I still find I miss things! Also, apologies for the long time between posts but we recently bought a new home and it has needed a complete renovation which has sucked up all my time. What a waste of life choosing shower suites, flooring and kitchens is when there are much deeper things to be contemplating! Anyway, below is a link to a radio discussion that occurred in the past week or so in Australia which featured a couple of experiencers and Dr Sam Parnia.

Link to radio discussion on NDEs

Dr Parnia discusses two studies. Firstly he mentions AWARE I which, he once again asserts, validates NDEs. The second study he mentions is one that he has been undertaking the past couple of years as part of his “Survivorship & Psychological Wellbeing After Cardiac Arrest” research program (link to description of program). From the interview this appears to be a descriptive study that assesses various aspects of post CA experience, with NDEs being just one factor. Importantly, it is has been conducted across a number of different countries which include different cultural and religious influences. Information about the number and type of NDEs reported from non-Western countries has been poor in the past, and it looks like Dr Parnia is doing his best to address this gap in the data.

The two pieces of information that he shares with us are as follows:

  1. 11% of people who survive CA have an NDE. This is almost identical to reports from previous studies, however, as I point out in my book this most likely reflects the age group of the majority of people who have experienced CAs, which tends to be people who are much older. It is very likely that Sam will get enough data to create a statistical analysis of changes in rate of NDE reports with age. As I point out in my book (link to book), data to date suggests that the younger the age of the experiencer, the higher the chance of recalling an NDE, and changes in memory function alone would not account for the large differences observed. Anyway…think I’ve banged that drum enough! I will rewrite that section of my book including other suggestions for causes from contributors to this blog. He makes a bit of a blooper when he says the fact that 11% of people have NDEs means that 850 million people have had NDEs. That might be true if the entire population of planet earth had experienced a CA, but that is not the case.
  2. He differentiates NDEs from semi conscious recollections. He describes in particular how some patients who wake up and try to pull ventilators out are forcibly restrained by doctors. They then recount these experiences as being attacked by demons. He makes the suggestion that this may account for the hellish NDEs that are sometimes reported. I think Howard Storm might have something to say about that!

It is very important that Dr Parnia is doing this kind of qualitative research alongside the AWARE II and hypothermic studies since it really closes the loop on our understanding. When (not if) he produces the validated OBE hits that prove NDEs are real, he will be able to also provide better information about the nature of those experiences than may have been produced before. He has a scientific approach to this that will hopefully create a more consistent understanding of what is reported in NDEs.

It has to be said, he really is the world leader in this field now, and may one day be regarded in the same light as past heroes of science and medicine who made discoveries that forever changed our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. That of course will rely on him producing the vital smoking gun evidence of scientifically validated OBEs.

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75 thoughts on “New Research From The Parnia Lab

  1. Eduardo on said:

    Regarding point 2 .If so it seems to me that it could only explain the Ecms that are entirely negative or infernal. Not those that begin in a hellish way and then become positive and heavenly…For I infer that this wanting to take off the respirators would occur, if I understand correctly, when coming out of the coma.

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  2. Great post! Well said Orson!

    Ps. Hope you are having a beautiful home now 😀

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  3. As an FYI, from Thursday morning 12/8 I am running a 4 day promotion to download my whole book on Kindle for free.

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  4. If it OK will advise that via a few Facebook groups and put a few words of my readings upon it in those groups too

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  5. Stanley on said:

    Hmm…number 2 is an extremely interesting point. Maybe…

    Nevertheless I am glad to hear an update. Hope I’m not alone in still holding out hope for an aware II hit.

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    • Stanley, either tens of thousands of experiencers and thousands of doctors/HCPs are lying, bonkers or deceived, or there will be a hit. The anecdotal evidence, and supporting evidence is way to strong for it not to be real, therefore the AWARE II study, provided they recruit sufficient numbers, should get a hit. I am even more hopeful for AWARE III though…the hypothermic study. They started recruiting a year ago, and I would be very surprised if they don’t already have hits from that provided they were recruiting 1 patients week.

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      • Though couldn’t one make the same argument for those having been abducted by UFOs? Personally, I laugh at UFO sightings but its not like I’ve lost respect for those who believe that stuff. Sure makes the universe a more interesting place to live in, I get why they want to dream.

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      • Stanley on said:

        Hi Ben,

        Please do not approve this or my previous comment as I accidentally wrote with my real name, and not my alias Stanley.

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  6. Bartl werner on said:

    10.1016/j.reanimation.2021.06.003

    Is this new?

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  7. Bartl werner on said:
    • Hi Bartl werner, thanks for posting this. It is new, and just a letter to the journal resuscitation in which Parnia is trying to distinguish the different types of conscious recollections that occur during CPR. Creating a more precise classification system will enable investigators to better distinguish the types of events that happened I guess. Ultimately though, you either have an NDE or you don’t.

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      • It would be fun to see you debate this with Alex on Skeptiko. It seems like quite a jump and a leap to say their is an afterlife for everyone, let alone an afterlife at all, without first explaining how its possible. I am quite happy to assume their is one though based upon the rather poor NDE evidence and also the evidence from mediumship, particularly the work of Julie Beishel. Once the italian group finished their study perhaps replication should give me more confidence?

        Did you know the concept of independent replication was a business model created by a business mogul? This cemented the value of journals he owned…its a fun history. Forgot the guys name right now but you might have heard of him.

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  8. I hope if I die I go to Heaven. Those people who end up visiting Hell makes me a bit scared to die.

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    • If Dr. Parnia can prove NDEs/OBEs, you’ve literally nothing to worry about. According to anecdotal evidence, even hard core atheists make it to heaven (which is consistent with Judaism, not so sure if it’s that way with Christianity, though). Basically, just don’t do anything stupid, lol, like steal, etc. Follow good conduct to a tee and you ought to be fine.

      After all, G-d is just, but He is also merciful, patient, and full of understanding.

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      • Yes Ytiz. That is something I discovered. There are people who believe in total erasure and according to their beliefs there is no afterlife. Yet in reports even these types of people who died and came back reported an afterlife. Some even had a total perspective shift.

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      • Since you mention it Yitz, the Christian teachings are quite different. Jesus preaches that the vast majority of people will not make it to heaven and most will either perish or go to Hell. He teaches that faith in him is the way to eternal life. He also claimed that he was the “Son of God” or God in the flesh. To paraphrase C.S.Lewis, he was either mad or bad or telling the truth. I personally believe the latter, but I also see that there are aspects of NDE reports that challenge some aspects of Christian teaching.

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    • Anthony on said:

      That near death experiences exist and can be scientifically verified does not mean that there is an afterlife at all

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      • Anthony, you’re right. Technically, NDEs could just be illusionary images in the brain — however, if you mean to suggest that they are truly real experiences [i.e., people actually go to said abodes], then I think you could walk away with the idea that said abode isn’t Heaven — but you’d be doing it knowing you’re rejecting obvious wisdom and objective data.

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      • Stan Smith on said:

        If it was an illusion in the mind as a last resort during death, it wouldn’t make sense that people have reported things they saw while their cognitive function is gone.

        Think about it for a second, how would they be able to experience things in the room that actually happened? I heard an anecdote that someone had their eyes taped shut, but was able to see a doctor doing a sort of chicken dance in the room. It was later confirmed by the doctor.

        Basically what I’m saying is; theres too much evidence right now in favor of the consciousness living on.

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  9. Stan, true, but then again… it’s just anecdotal… how much can you trust it? It’s why Parnia’s doing an objective study.

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    • Stan Smith on said:

      True, it’s anecdotal, it will always be anecdotal until we die and see for ourselves.

      As I said though, just keep an open mind, if Parnia proved the conscious exists after death, even for a limited time after death, who says it disappears ever?

      I like his objectivity, not commenting on things he doesn’t know, unlike all the people who refuse to go against the material world.

      Anyway, back to the point, who in their right mind would make up these stories? Almost all NDEs share a theme, it would be weird if every single unique brain somehow came up with the same hallucination. It’s possible, but unlikely.

      I’m very agnostic, but I also don’t say God isn’t real, keeping an open mind is always key.

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      • UFO sightings also have the same theme: they’re abducted; the aliens always look the same; they’re always operated on… it goes on and on and on. I’m not bashing NDEs, I sure hope they’re true!

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      • There is a flaw in the delusion theory. If the human is hallucinating then they would need to require some form of blood flow in order for the hallucination to work. Evidence even in freaking AWARE 1 seems to imply that this isn’t the case. How can one hallucinate if the brain is dead and as we know the brain is the controller. It loses all it’s functions everything else goes too. Heart, liver, lungs, everything. It’s all tied to the nervous system and thus the brain. Brain activity is often measured. It is often shown that around the time an experience occurs is when the brain flatlines. In other words you’re dead Jim. The brain is off. Ya can’t hallucinate with a dead brain.

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  10. Ben, I love your objectivity.

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    • I hope that you aren’t being sarcastic Yitz! No one is objective, not even our hero Sam Parnia. He is someone who cannot contemplate the idea that not everyone gets a happy ending, and that is a very noble aspiration…but what if the evidence isn’t aligned with that? When he dismisses hellish experiences as recollections of waking moments when people held down by HCPs, his head is buried deep in the sand of subjective understanding.

      Iam not objective. I have a very strong faith that influences every aspect of my thinking, and while I try to look at facts objectively, I will always be inclined to bend them to my worldview…it is only natural.

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  11. UFO sightings are far from the same. The USDNI just did a reports. We h ave them on multiple sensors with trained pilots confirming the data. The Nimitz UAP was observed going something like 60000 feet in .73 secs. Since it has some physicality because radar bounced off of it. That is as physically impossible as what Parnia has found. Yet it happened.

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  12. Possibly artifacts. I do think out there are indeed other humans or other human like species on other planets. But I don’t think they are being made out to be how science fiction depicts them and I do not think said other human like lifeforms would show any interest in visiting our planet any time soon or they would have already made their presence known to us. And if they ever do in the slim chance visit us I hope to God they are friendly.

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    • @RegenKingReprise (@Galaxyvoyager11) Prof. Avi Loeb (astrophysicist) is now onto this (and his new team) with the Galileo Project at Harvard where they’re building tech. to detect these intelligently behaving objects.
      I’ve actually no problem saying these are alien intelligences that have probably been around Earth over at least thousands of years. And have influenced religion. They also cluster around nuclear facilities and hang around carrier strike groups.
      As Avi says, why should we presume we are the “smartest kid on the block”?

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  13. David Bentley-Hart (Christian theologian) actually argues “That All Shall Be Saved” after life (his recent book) so the debate seems to be open, not that many will go to hell (if exists) as apparently “Jesus preaches”. Worth looking BH up on this.
    Anyway, I also thought the NDE life review is a soft learning experience not something to beat the experiencer with.

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    • I hope “all shall be saved” is wrong because then you have Nazis up in heaven!!! If a hell exists, some definitely deserve to be there forever.

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      • Yitz. You may be surprised at God’s capacity for forgiveness..monsters can be made into angels under his gaze. Humans on the other hand should never ever forgive the Nazis, or others who target Jews, or anyone for their faith.

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  14. I am loving this discussion. UFOs…seriously, the universe is vast, to think that we are the only planet with life, or that we are the most advanced life form is somewhat narrow minded. Therefore it is perfectly plausible that other life forms come here and observe us with concern that one day we may develop the technology to visit them, and given our propensity for violence, they every reason to be concerned!

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  15. New interview of Dr. Parnia

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    • Hi Tom, thanks for posting I’m not sure that it is new. It feels familiar, and he looks younger. Even if it is new, unfortunately he doesn’t say anything new.

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      • Stan Smith on said:

        The interviewer is very close minded in my opinion. I see a ton of comments saying that Parnia stuttering is him “making shit up”, when in actuality it’s the pressure. It seems as if the interviewer wants a solid answer, to something we don’t have the answer to (for the most part). And in other interviews, the interviewer always puts his own opinion first, saying consciousness doesn’t exist after death at all.

        Parnia’s analogy of the TV set works a little, but I don’t fully understand what he means. Either way, Parnia is doing amazing things.

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      • It really is a new video,mabey that is mean something.

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  16. New article (for discover magazine Sept Oct 2021) presenting both sides with Parnia, Greyson, Nelson and Fischer. Which is only correct

    https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/can-science-explain-near-death-experiences

    Liked by 1 person

  17. 1:24

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    • Yes, he has been saying this for years.Many of us here believe it to be true, but until we have the scientifically validated proof, many will never believe…indeed, even with the proof they will still not believe!

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      • Hi, Ben and all, I’ve been having a break from NDE’s, but 0f course I still look in here occasionally. The video of Parnia above dates to around 2014+ (if I recall correctly). It’s a very significant interview, arguably the most important Robert Kuhn has done on this subject, although it’s not immediately obvious *why.

        From about 2.40 to 6.00, the whole crux of the matter is set out. There is no doubt now (scientifically) that NDE’s occur and that they are a real subjective experience. The crucial question (scientifically) is WHEN do they occur?

        Is it before the heart stops (cardiac arrest), after the heart restarts, or the unthinkable (for science) during cardiac arrest. Everything else (although interesting) is just a sideshow.

        Doesn’t matter about depersonalisation, REM dreaming, seizures, altered blood gasses, G lock, neurotransmitter blockade, DMT, or whatever one chooses from the list of over twenty theoretical explanations. Parnia’s work will give us the answer for certain, one way or the other, eventually.

        If they are conclusively demonstrated to occur when the brain is offline, then that’s the end of the ‘endless’ debate. Then we have consciousness without a brain and the textbooks will have to be rewritten (partly). *And all the other scientists and philosophers Robert has interviewed, will then have to concentrate on what that means for us and our place/existence in the universe.

        @Ben. Best of luck with the book ! I don’t agree with all of it, not that that matters of course.

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      • Hi Tim,

        Good to hear from you. Yes, you are right. Until we have that data, nothing else really matters. I understand why you are taking a time out. I am in a bit of a holding pattern now. Got the book out, sold quite a few copies and have received good feedback, although like you, not everyone agrees with everything I say. I was expecting that! I am expecting something to come out of one of the ongoing Parnia lab studies for long, maybe this fall.

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  18. Samwise on said:

    @Tom. It is a good interview but it is a little bit old. I am sure it is at least 2 or 3 old. It has been reuploaded, so it seems to be new.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Yep, that’s what I thought. It has been reloaded onto Youtube or something to make it look up to date.

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      • Thanks, Ben !

        I certainly do agree that there are far too many (veridical) cases, for it to be some kind of “delusion”. There’s no doubt something amazing is occurring. This recent and very well produced French documentary, is well worth a look.

        The young doctor in the opening sequences, Dr François Lallier, has recently conducted a study of 118 (I think it was 118) patients in order to determine if those with psychiatric and neurological conditions (those prone to seizures and hallucinations/and those prone to delusions etc) were more likely to report an NDE. He found that the reverse was true. Those prone to psychiatric /neurological conditions had fewer NDE’s.

        Later on, we see (Materialist) Professor Stephen Laureys of the Coma science group in Liege, admit that… “It’s fascinating to see that when we have heart attacks (he means cardiac arrest) and there is no blood flow, we can still have these perceptions and emotions that are so detailed”.

        “What they’ve seen and what they’ve experienced is not compatible with the laws of physics and biology…they’ve passed through walls, met dead people”

        Now, I’m not suggesting that Laureys is necessarily accepting what they say at face value. But…he is at least not attempting to deny/rubbish what his patients have told him. Surely some progress here from the mainstream science camp?

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  19. Cannot reply to Tim for some reasons – it has been demonstrated years ago, it happens not before or after but directly (during) within range when heart is stopped, and all the correlated functions are seized bottom to top. No consciousness should be possible at that point if you believe it produced by brain, not even slight reflex controlled by brain is available, “demonstration” was only a question for bunch of (don’t want to say clowns) some people who are suggesting merely idiotic explanations such us hallucinations or open eyes during heart arrest and thus registering visual information. all that is bs. NDE IS what is only NDE when this is happening in that range, otherwise this is not NDE Tim.

    They had two hits of visual and sound registration that can be verified against time and recorded time of death (heart full stop) one – they could not follow, patient was too sick or something, another one was clearly verified. Those are aware 1 results. Again, it was never the question for many others who was involved into this, it was from the very beginning to have bullet prof medical evidence, that is done with formal research. It was done. they have it. but even before 20 years of aware 1 it is clear that recollections was at the time when no heart\brain function is presented, sometimes as deep as 30-45 min down to cardiac arrest and people are able to reconstruct what was happening around. It is hard to believe for the most normal materialistic human beings but this is not a question anymore officially – it is happening exactly in that time like it or not. lol… deal with it. It is also impossible coincidence that some many people have independently so similar experiences just by chance, chances of that are zer0. but it is also very true that in the bundle of NDE you have blend of not actual NDE but mixture of all kinds of things that mixed, pressed and create this distorted vision of.

    It doesn’t mean though anything and just in principle talking of afterlife makes no sense at all, no one knows what life is, no one knows what consciousness is and how it exists, whether it has quantum nature or any other type of matter that we know nothing about.

    So Parnia passed that point of proving anything while back, his research has wider target – improve survivability and well being after Cardiac Arrest and shed the light on what our consciousness is, but it is important to remember, until people have a slightest clue on what consciousness is – it is impossible to draw any conclusion on death experiences or what is after and how is it happening except very simple – this is not by chance.

    here is another little spin… all that OBE, and details are irrelevant, it doesn’t really matter, I mean it is, but only for people to make them feel better about their belief system as you cannot draw anything out of the fact was it true or not, as long as you don’t know what consciousness is, it is just descriptive science, there is no mechanisms how it is fixed in the brain, what produces is, what is happening when biological function of brain is over… there is no way we can move with any of those forward with Parnia or not, with knowledge that it is true or not, but collecting data and experimenting has itself important function, accumulating statistical data and data overall will result into some ideas, this is one side and this is what Parnia openly does, and the second:

    True NDE or what he is calling TED (transformative experience of death) has a vital function of life review, with reflection on your iteration with other people, it makes sense only in two cases: either you have a chance to “return” – whatever it means – back to your body so death is not final for you yet, or (in case if this life review happens regardless of this possibility) you will have another life.

    This life review is most important part.

    Hope it makes sense 😉 haha…

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    • Hi Tim, thank for posting the French video. Re Laureys I I remember this from 2013 by him and his team … “The present study shows that NDE memories have more characteristics than any kind of memory of real or imagined events and of other memories of a period of coma or impaired consciousness following an acquired severe brain dysfunction. In our opinion, the presented data demonstrate that NDEs cannot be considered as imagined events. We rather propose that the physiological origins of NDEs lead them to be really perceived although not lived in reality (i.e., being hallucination- or dream-like events), having as rich characteristics as memories of real events. The amount of characteristics of NDE memories probably is further enhanced by their here-identified high emotional and self-referential values. This suggests that memories of NDEs are flashbulb memories of really perceived hallucinations.”
      https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0057620

      As you say he has now said … “What they’ve seen and what they’ve experienced is not compatible with the laws of physics and biology…they’ve passed through walls, met dead people” That’s quite a statement and I find it fascinating in 7 or so years a materialistic explanation doesn’t seem to have made any progress. He’s very open-minded.

      Hi Orson, really about what you have spoken of, in the video Dr. Francois Lallier said about his medical thesis … “One of the suppositions and conclusions of my thesis is that everyone has an NDE during a cardiac arrest, but not everyone remembers. For example, children have an extraordinary memory compared to older people and in cardiac arrest, around 60% of children recall their near-death experiences afterwards, whereas only 15% of adults do.”
      Wrt what you said … “only 10-20% of elderly adults reports NDEs, whereas 80-90% of kids who die and are resuscitated report NDEs. As a reminder if you read my book, changes in memory function with age do not account for the difference.”

      Not being contentious, just thought you might be interested! He “does” conclude everyone has an NDE but children remember better.

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      • Hi, Alan !

        Yes, that study by Laureys and his team on the magnitude of patient’s NDE memories, was very significant! They weren’t expecting what they found. I thought it was fascinating too, that Laureys would even ‘allude’ to those elements of the near death experience that contradict the laws of physics (passing through walls etc and meeting dead relatives)

        Many academics will not even admit that such reports even exist, never mind discuss them. So perturbed and threatened are they, by what these patients have to say, they will usually either laugh, get very angry or just ignore you completely.

        A friend of mine has spoken to Dr Laureys specifically about veridical out of body experiences during NDE’s. Laureys told him that he is well aware of them, but if he diverts from the assumption that they are produced by the brain, he could lose his support for studying this phenomenon.

        Belgium has some of the most active, hard line and vocal sceptics anywhere in the world and ideas such as separate consciousness are not something that they want to know about. In their ‘eyes’, such ‘nonsense’ was consigned to the dustbin, hundreds of years ago in the enlightenment.

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    • Hi, Oleg

      I’m an NDE proponent so you don’t have to convince me that out of body experiences really do occur during cardiac arrest and other life threatening situations (and non life threatening too).

      Where I disagree with you is that although Parnia’s study contained two great examples of veridical out of body experiences during cardiac arrest, one of them (Mr A) exceptional and *conclusive, it could be argued ! (*logical deduction)

      However, cases such as those, as persuasive as they are, are not enough to turn science on it’s head. There’s still wriggle room for persistent/mischievous sceptics to suggest that those cases didn’t really happen that way…the patient got the information from somewhere else and then retrospectively built it into his NDE and then forgot that he did it etc etc and so on and so forth. It’s highly unlikely, we know, but that’s the state of play.

      The only evidence that will ever be acceptable to mainstream science is scientifically timed and controlled double blind hits, such as Aware 2 is trying to find. And many more than just one or two. Just about the most challenging and difficult experiment to carry out. It’s a credit to Sam Parnia, that he’s willing to even undertake such a study. Sceptics wouldn’t, to ‘prove’ the reverse 😉

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      • Ok, thanks Tim and about the mentality over in Belgium. Didn’t know that! I’ve also always suspected these top guys know all about veridical NDEs but the approach to kind of work at the problem “the other way” by eliminating any conventional explanation seems the only way to convince die-hard science overall. “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

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      • Tim, I was not trying to convince you, I red your posts before – it was pure rhetoric fun from my end.

        What I do think though that none of proof will convince anyone, it is inconvincible in principle until you know the nature of phenomena of consciousness and few more aspects of death – like what is life. That is what I meant by saying this is all irrelevant and belief system will always dominate over any evidence you can throw. Thus I see Sam Parnia is not trying to prove anything, he is solving altogether different sidelining issue – improve normal life after cardiac arrest and shed a bit of light on consciousness. He is extremely intelligent doctor and clearly understands his limits on the topic. His study is not constructed now to convince anyone it targets completely different elements and until there is a compelling theory of consciousness with its own experiments and proves and results and yada yada yada – we will never understand NDE, they are stating this clearly including Parnia – we do not understand neither how is this happening, nor mechanisms behind. It was and it is and it will be a “mystery”.

        As well, there is no need (to my opinion) to “turn science on its head” as this is irrelevant and moreover will not bring you anywhere, the fact that some people who are on the edge will admit – yea… people do see things when they die – means absolutely nothing as no one understand (see above) how this is happening. Materialistic science was and is successfully and at its best by being skeptical all the way through to the bottom. Double blind hits, triple blind hits, quadruple blind hits… all goes nowhere. There always be significant doubts until “we” understand how it works in principle.

        Like one of my past scientific teachers used to say we can correlate statistically number of herrings in the can with sun activity and get correlation close to 0.99… it means nothing unless you know the physical fundamentals behind.

        I don’t mean to disappoint anyone, but it is little naïve to wait from Sam Parnia any sort of “ultimate proof”… proof of what? And what does it mean…?

        As well, Sam Parnia not by chance is removing all borderline cases as they create this uncertainty, and mix actual NDE with enormous range of events that might have similar nature (like consciousness may under specific circumstances be separate from the brain) and focus on clear cut situation which is actual death=cardiac arrest. As then you are dealing with only NDE and not all that cultural and other aspects that added.

        Good luck!

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      • @Oleg

        I’ve read your thoughts carefully and I agree with some of them…we don’t know what life is (we don’t actually, you’re right of course)..we don’t know what consciousness is objectively (observing it, that is). True.

        However, we do know our own consciousness subjectively (I think–therefore I am), all of us do, and together we can share our subjective experience of consciousness with each other, as we are doing now.

        With the advances in resuscitation (bringing people back from being dead) we now have an opportunity to discover something important about that/our subjective consciousness, whether it is created by the bump and grind of neurological processes (bottom up) or whether it is perhaps independent and originating from somewhere else (top down).

        So I completely disagree with you that Parnia is somehow on a fool’s errand (as they say–wasting his time) or words to that effect. In my opinion, his work is absolutely crucial and necessary and has the potential to change the world for the better.

        If everyone finally agrees (in 2050;) ) that consciousness (all that is really important about us) continues after death, then it opens up a whole new world (literally). We cannot then justify continuing to do what we do to each other, surely.

        Propagating wars, accumulating wealth, trashing the planet, the list is endless, isn’t it ? If we know once and for all that our real self is an immortal entity/being of some kind and not just a physical and temporary “blip” , then won’t we behave (unanimously) in a more gentle, kinder and civilised way with regards to everything?

        Then again, as humans go, including myself, I can well imagine the answer to that being…no. But I still think Parnia has to continue.

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      • @Alan

        Alan said >”the approach to kind of work at the problem “the other way” by eliminating any conventional explanation seems the only way to convince die-hard science overall. “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

        It’s a fair point, Alan. We have to bear in mind, though, that after nearly 47 years of eliminating the now over twenty proposals, scientists as a whole still refuse to accept the only explanation that actually fits/explains the data. So, a process of elimination, yes but Parnia is also going to have to prove it.

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  20. Tim,

    Feels I wasn’t explaining myself clearly. Sure Sam Parnia is one of a kind front-line researcher that was brave enough to go into this territory while committing to use solid scientific method, he is clearly amazing fella in the field.

    And sure, his research should be continued, and yes it is really important to go further down this route and accumulate data (that will possibly over the years and decades convert in to quality, results and in some new understanding.

    That is all given, I absolutely support it and curious like everyone else. And no – Sam Parnia is not fooling himself, but some people do.

    Like immortality is impossible in modern science framework, and not because it is impossible in principle, but because principals of this immortality are completely unknown. And fundamentals that must be there to support more or less wider acceptance of a such thing are not existing.

    Basically what you are (forgive me if you are not, take it as a figure of speech) striving for is to jump to final conclusion regarding that and resolve some earthly features “accumulating wealth, trashing planet… etc” based on Sam Parnia research.

    I am sorry Tim, you have my sympathy and respect but this is not possible – this things are way-way more complex. And you cannot skip answers to some (not even all) questions that I mentioned before (life, consciousness, origins in wide scale of things, origin of laws, molecular machines and so on, list is huge).

    So even to spin anything of immortality we need to understand what arrow of time is (in terms of science) and it is nowhere close to that, remember from many NDEers – timelessness? What do you do with that?

    That is where I see hard stop – not in prove of whether experience of death and recollections are real. You ask me – of course they are real, of course it is happening during full heart stop, surely people got somehow withdrawn from what we call “our reality, time, life” but there is absolutely zero fundamental understanding how is that possible, zero theories that are not just descriptive but give you scientifically falsifiable method to test it. Except simple description of facts. You cannot draw chemistry of physics of NDE process or estimate it qualitative characteristics, or predict anything out of vague – 10% of cardiac arrest will have it – this is a real truth to that and the sooner most of folks accept it, the sooner it will start become more credible field. As even here (with all respect and I don’t want to offend anyone!) even here, I see UFO, religion, mystiques of all kinds… or expectations that we will know by specific timeframe if we are immortals.

    So yes, kudos to Sam, and I wish he gets financing to continue his research, it is very-very important, but no, we won’t know the answer if we are immortals, not now not in 50 years, lets try to resolve simple issues, like how that damn molecules got stick to each other to form one simple living cell… as long as it here it got here somehow – there got to be the way, natural or supernatural, but there is a way of doing it… lol by itself, or with someone’s helps haha

    So I vote of Parnia, and sure NDE is real thing, but I do see that he reasonably avoids involving himself into philosophical or theological discussions and rightly so. He is a doctor, he cares about patient and he is a practical researcher, he follows where evidence leads him, but he is not theoretical physicist who can suggest underlying explanations to this nor this is possible within one human life, he is a practitioner, he executes experiments and publish his results while doing intensive care… the research itself is fantastic and hard to walk by without paying attention. Surely we will hear from him something like “it is entirely possible we go into different dimension after death” and he is absolutely right, it is possible as we don’t understand nature of conciseness at all, but actual terms, and what exactly is happening will be possible to comprehends only after we understand the nature of life and everything else connected to what we call conscious, intelligent life. It doesn’t mean though we should not investigate, actually vice versa…

    Thanks!

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    • Oleg said>”You ask me – of course they are real, of course it is happening during full heart stop, surely people got somehow withdrawn from what we call “our reality, time, life” but there is absolutely zero fundamental understanding how is that possible, zero theories that are not just descriptive but give you scientifically falsifiable method to test it. Except simple description of facts. You cannot draw chemistry of physics of NDE process or estimate it qualitative characteristics, or predict anything out of vague – 10% of cardiac arrest will have it – this is a real truth to that and the sooner most of folks accept it, the sooner it will start become more credible field.”

      Hi, again Oleg ! I’m not sure what exactly it is you are arguing for. Let me try and simplify it. I don’t think (and never did) Parnia’s work will tell us how the universe is set up, existentially, how and why it came into existence, why there is a soul of us and what actually happens to it after death. It’s forever unknowable, I would have thought.

      It will, however, tell us that materialism isn’t correct, that there is something else. We can surely and justifiably, logically deduce that if we have a soul, we must have some kind of purpose beyond the proliferation of our gene pool.

      That’s it for me, I don’t know what you want me to say. I also think (but I don’t know) that everyone has an NDE when they die. I suspect that everyone does, just that midazolam wipes out the memory of it in most patients.

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  21. Anthony on said:

    My limitations in this regard are very great, but commenting once with people who deal with neurological issues, they told me that when cardiac arrest occurs (which we all go through at the time of our death) brain cells do not die instantly, it is a process, and in addition certain substances are released in the brain. Some consider that near-death experiences occur in that period of time in which the brain is not yet fully dead. Sorry if I have not expressed myself well, my English is not very good

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    • Alan said>”they told me that when cardiac arrest occurs (which we all go through at the time of our death) brain cells do not die instantly, it is a process, and in addition certain substances are released in the brain”

      Hi again, Alan. The brain cells don’t die instantly. Rather, the electrical and chemical activity that is thought to be responsible for the creation of our mind, our thoughts…disappears after 5-10-20 seconds of cardiac arrest.

      If blood flow is restarted, the brain cells begin to communicate with each other again (apparently) and our mind is re-created. The disappearance of the mind and the destruction of the brain cells that are thought to be responsible for it, are two different things. I’m not an expert, just to point out. These are just facts.

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  22. i send a e-mail to Parnia lab,they tell me the study are extended at least two years.

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    • @Tim thank you for the documentary, I really enjoyed it. I am not sure statements from Laurey reflect any change in his convictions but at least he seems more calmed and open than he seems when reading his articles.

      Regarding the research on PL, I know this was previously discussed. In the abstract Parnia mentions “some data suggests that this lucid death related episodes might correlate with surges in electrocortical activity”. But in radio interviews (including the one from December 2020) he keeps saying NDE occurred when the brain shuts down, and that conciousness seems to continue after the heart has stopped and the patient has gone beyond the threshold of death…etc. Do you guys feel he is referring to surges observed in 2013 and 2011, or he is referring to his own research? Maybe Panria Lab would answer that?
      Anyway, this is still related to the mistery of his 2019 results, he never mentioned a correlation…

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      • @Mery

        Parnia mentions “some data suggests that this lucid death related episodes might correlate with surges in electrocortical activity”

        Hi, Mery ! It seems to me, it’s just a “nod” (noted reference) to the work of Lakhmir Chawla and his observation of a brief surge in the EEG after the stoppage of the heart, also with Jimo Borjigin and her rat studies.

        Remember, Parnia has to come at this from an entirely materialistic perspective in order to get approval for the study. He has to supply a satisfactory reason why he thinks terminal lucidity warrants investigation. What he can’t do (officially) is say that he’s looking for evidence that the mind begins to function (again) without a brain (in some cases of terminal lucidity).

        So, he’s clearly going to put EEG on the heads of patients dying from alzheimers/ dementia and related diseases near the end of their lives, to see if periods of lucidity can be correlated to the time when there is no brain activity (on the EEG)=mind without brain, basically.

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