New Research From The Parnia Lab
Thanks to SeanD for spotting this. Despite googling for Parnia every day, I still find I miss things! Also, apologies for the long time between posts but we recently bought a new home and it has needed a complete renovation which has sucked up all my time. What a waste of life choosing shower suites, flooring and kitchens is when there are much deeper things to be contemplating! Anyway, below is a link to a radio discussion that occurred in the past week or so in Australia which featured a couple of experiencers and Dr Sam Parnia.
Link to radio discussion on NDEs
Dr Parnia discusses two studies. Firstly he mentions AWARE I which, he once again asserts, validates NDEs. The second study he mentions is one that he has been undertaking the past couple of years as part of his “Survivorship & Psychological Wellbeing After Cardiac Arrest” research program (link to description of program). From the interview this appears to be a descriptive study that assesses various aspects of post CA experience, with NDEs being just one factor. Importantly, it is has been conducted across a number of different countries which include different cultural and religious influences. Information about the number and type of NDEs reported from non-Western countries has been poor in the past, and it looks like Dr Parnia is doing his best to address this gap in the data.
The two pieces of information that he shares with us are as follows:
- 11% of people who survive CA have an NDE. This is almost identical to reports from previous studies, however, as I point out in my book this most likely reflects the age group of the majority of people who have experienced CAs, which tends to be people who are much older. It is very likely that Sam will get enough data to create a statistical analysis of changes in rate of NDE reports with age. As I point out in my book (link to book), data to date suggests that the younger the age of the experiencer, the higher the chance of recalling an NDE, and changes in memory function alone would not account for the large differences observed. Anyway…think I’ve banged that drum enough! I will rewrite that section of my book including other suggestions for causes from contributors to this blog. He makes a bit of a blooper when he says the fact that 11% of people have NDEs means that 850 million people have had NDEs. That might be true if the entire population of planet earth had experienced a CA, but that is not the case.
- He differentiates NDEs from semi conscious recollections. He describes in particular how some patients who wake up and try to pull ventilators out are forcibly restrained by doctors. They then recount these experiences as being attacked by demons. He makes the suggestion that this may account for the hellish NDEs that are sometimes reported. I think Howard Storm might have something to say about that!
It is very important that Dr Parnia is doing this kind of qualitative research alongside the AWARE II and hypothermic studies since it really closes the loop on our understanding. When (not if) he produces the validated OBE hits that prove NDEs are real, he will be able to also provide better information about the nature of those experiences than may have been produced before. He has a scientific approach to this that will hopefully create a more consistent understanding of what is reported in NDEs.
It has to be said, he really is the world leader in this field now, and may one day be regarded in the same light as past heroes of science and medicine who made discoveries that forever changed our understanding of ourselves and the world around us. That of course will rely on him producing the vital smoking gun evidence of scientifically validated OBEs.
Regarding point 2 .If so it seems to me that it could only explain the Ecms that are entirely negative or infernal. Not those that begin in a hellish way and then become positive and heavenly…For I infer that this wanting to take off the respirators would occur, if I understand correctly, when coming out of the coma.
Great post! Well said Orson!
Ps. Hope you are having a beautiful home now 😀
It’s not beautiful at the moment!
As an FYI, from Thursday morning 12/8 I am running a 4 day promotion to download my whole book on Kindle for free.
If it OK will advise that via a few Facebook groups and put a few words of my readings upon it in those groups too
That not worded great….about the book I mean of the promotion
Go ahead…great wording or not 😉 did you post a review on Amazon?
No review on Amazon as don’t like to post on it. I posted it there too two Facebook groups. From what I remember it was controversial to a degree but sure no harm in that 😀
Hmm…number 2 is an extremely interesting point. Maybe…
Nevertheless I am glad to hear an update. Hope I’m not alone in still holding out hope for an aware II hit.
Stanley, either tens of thousands of experiencers and thousands of doctors/HCPs are lying, bonkers or deceived, or there will be a hit. The anecdotal evidence, and supporting evidence is way to strong for it not to be real, therefore the AWARE II study, provided they recruit sufficient numbers, should get a hit. I am even more hopeful for AWARE III though…the hypothermic study. They started recruiting a year ago, and I would be very surprised if they don’t already have hits from that provided they were recruiting 1 patients week.
Though couldn’t one make the same argument for those having been abducted by UFOs? Personally, I laugh at UFO sightings but its not like I’ve lost respect for those who believe that stuff. Sure makes the universe a more interesting place to live in, I get why they want to dream.
Please do not approve this or my previous comment as I accidentally wrote with my real name, and not my alias Stanley.
Is this new?
Is this new?
I hope now is ok
Hi Bartl werner, thanks for posting this. It is new, and just a letter to the journal resuscitation in which Parnia is trying to distinguish the different types of conscious recollections that occur during CPR. Creating a more precise classification system will enable investigators to better distinguish the types of events that happened I guess. Ultimately though, you either have an NDE or you don’t.
It would be fun to see you debate this with Alex on Skeptiko. It seems like quite a jump and a leap to say their is an afterlife for everyone, let alone an afterlife at all, without first explaining how its possible. I am quite happy to assume their is one though based upon the rather poor NDE evidence and also the evidence from mediumship, particularly the work of Julie Beishel. Once the italian group finished their study perhaps replication should give me more confidence?
Did you know the concept of independent replication was a business model created by a business mogul? This cemented the value of journals he owned…its a fun history. Forgot the guys name right now but you might have heard of him.
I hope if I die I go to Heaven. Those people who end up visiting Hell makes me a bit scared to die.
If Dr. Parnia can prove NDEs/OBEs, you’ve literally nothing to worry about. According to anecdotal evidence, even hard core atheists make it to heaven (which is consistent with Judaism, not so sure if it’s that way with Christianity, though). Basically, just don’t do anything stupid, lol, like steal, etc. Follow good conduct to a tee and you ought to be fine.
After all, G-d is just, but He is also merciful, patient, and full of understanding.
Yes Ytiz. That is something I discovered. There are people who believe in total erasure and according to their beliefs there is no afterlife. Yet in reports even these types of people who died and came back reported an afterlife. Some even had a total perspective shift.
Since you mention it Yitz, the Christian teachings are quite different. Jesus preaches that the vast majority of people will not make it to heaven and most will either perish or go to Hell. He teaches that faith in him is the way to eternal life. He also claimed that he was the “Son of God” or God in the flesh. To paraphrase C.S.Lewis, he was either mad or bad or telling the truth. I personally believe the latter, but I also see that there are aspects of NDE reports that challenge some aspects of Christian teaching.
That near death experiences exist and can be scientifically verified does not mean that there is an afterlife at all
Anthony, you’re right. Technically, NDEs could just be illusionary images in the brain — however, if you mean to suggest that they are truly real experiences [i.e., people actually go to said abodes], then I think you could walk away with the idea that said abode isn’t Heaven — but you’d be doing it knowing you’re rejecting obvious wisdom and objective data.
If it was an illusion in the mind as a last resort during death, it wouldn’t make sense that people have reported things they saw while their cognitive function is gone.
Think about it for a second, how would they be able to experience things in the room that actually happened? I heard an anecdote that someone had their eyes taped shut, but was able to see a doctor doing a sort of chicken dance in the room. It was later confirmed by the doctor.
Basically what I’m saying is; theres too much evidence right now in favor of the consciousness living on.
Stan, true, but then again… it’s just anecdotal… how much can you trust it? It’s why Parnia’s doing an objective study.
True, it’s anecdotal, it will always be anecdotal until we die and see for ourselves.
As I said though, just keep an open mind, if Parnia proved the conscious exists after death, even for a limited time after death, who says it disappears ever?
I like his objectivity, not commenting on things he doesn’t know, unlike all the people who refuse to go against the material world.
Anyway, back to the point, who in their right mind would make up these stories? Almost all NDEs share a theme, it would be weird if every single unique brain somehow came up with the same hallucination. It’s possible, but unlikely.
I’m very agnostic, but I also don’t say God isn’t real, keeping an open mind is always key.
UFO sightings also have the same theme: they’re abducted; the aliens always look the same; they’re always operated on… it goes on and on and on. I’m not bashing NDEs, I sure hope they’re true!
There is a flaw in the delusion theory. If the human is hallucinating then they would need to require some form of blood flow in order for the hallucination to work. Evidence even in freaking AWARE 1 seems to imply that this isn’t the case. How can one hallucinate if the brain is dead and as we know the brain is the controller. It loses all it’s functions everything else goes too. Heart, liver, lungs, everything. It’s all tied to the nervous system and thus the brain. Brain activity is often measured. It is often shown that around the time an experience occurs is when the brain flatlines. In other words you’re dead Jim. The brain is off. Ya can’t hallucinate with a dead brain.
Ben, I love your objectivity.
I hope that you aren’t being sarcastic Yitz! No one is objective, not even our hero Sam Parnia. He is someone who cannot contemplate the idea that not everyone gets a happy ending, and that is a very noble aspiration…but what if the evidence isn’t aligned with that? When he dismisses hellish experiences as recollections of waking moments when people held down by HCPs, his head is buried deep in the sand of subjective understanding.
Iam not objective. I have a very strong faith that influences every aspect of my thinking, and while I try to look at facts objectively, I will always be inclined to bend them to my worldview…it is only natural.
Every objective perceived through the subjective.
UFO sightings are far from the same. The USDNI just did a reports. We h ave them on multiple sensors with trained pilots confirming the data. The Nimitz UAP was observed going something like 60000 feet in .73 secs. Since it has some physicality because radar bounced off of it. That is as physically impossible as what Parnia has found. Yet it happened.
There’s so much debunking that.
Aren’t UFOs just aircraft used by the government that are experimental though? Either that or random debris.
Or perhaps they’re just random artifacts.
Possibly artifacts. I do think out there are indeed other humans or other human like species on other planets. But I don’t think they are being made out to be how science fiction depicts them and I do not think said other human like lifeforms would show any interest in visiting our planet any time soon or they would have already made their presence known to us. And if they ever do in the slim chance visit us I hope to God they are friendly.
@RegenKingReprise (@Galaxyvoyager11) Prof. Avi Loeb (astrophysicist) is now onto this (and his new team) with the Galileo Project at Harvard where they’re building tech. to detect these intelligently behaving objects.
I’ve actually no problem saying these are alien intelligences that have probably been around Earth over at least thousands of years. And have influenced religion. They also cluster around nuclear facilities and hang around carrier strike groups.
As Avi says, why should we presume we are the “smartest kid on the block”?
David Bentley-Hart (Christian theologian) actually argues “That All Shall Be Saved” after life (his recent book) so the debate seems to be open, not that many will go to hell (if exists) as apparently “Jesus preaches”. Worth looking BH up on this.
Anyway, I also thought the NDE life review is a soft learning experience not something to beat the experiencer with.
I hope “all shall be saved” is wrong because then you have Nazis up in heaven!!! If a hell exists, some definitely deserve to be there forever.
Yitz. You may be surprised at God’s capacity for forgiveness..monsters can be made into angels under his gaze. Humans on the other hand should never ever forgive the Nazis, or others who target Jews, or anyone for their faith.
I am loving this discussion. UFOs…seriously, the universe is vast, to think that we are the only planet with life, or that we are the most advanced life form is somewhat narrow minded. Therefore it is perfectly plausible that other life forms come here and observe us with concern that one day we may develop the technology to visit them, and given our propensity for violence, they every reason to be concerned!
New interview of Dr. Parnia
Hi Tom, thanks for posting I’m not sure that it is new. It feels familiar, and he looks younger. Even if it is new, unfortunately he doesn’t say anything new.
The interviewer is very close minded in my opinion. I see a ton of comments saying that Parnia stuttering is him “making shit up”, when in actuality it’s the pressure. It seems as if the interviewer wants a solid answer, to something we don’t have the answer to (for the most part). And in other interviews, the interviewer always puts his own opinion first, saying consciousness doesn’t exist after death at all.
Parnia’s analogy of the TV set works a little, but I don’t fully understand what he means. Either way, Parnia is doing amazing things.
It really is a new video,mabey that is mean something.
New article (for discover magazine Sept Oct 2021) presenting both sides with Parnia, Greyson, Nelson and Fischer. Which is only correct
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I really it’s true
That’s a really good summary article.
Yes, he has been saying this for years.Many of us here believe it to be true, but until we have the scientifically validated proof, many will never believe…indeed, even with the proof they will still not believe!
Hi, Ben and all, I’ve been having a break from NDE’s, but 0f course I still look in here occasionally. The video of Parnia above dates to around 2014+ (if I recall correctly). It’s a very significant interview, arguably the most important Robert Kuhn has done on this subject, although it’s not immediately obvious *why.
From about 2.40 to 6.00, the whole crux of the matter is set out. There is no doubt now (scientifically) that NDE’s occur and that they are a real subjective experience. The crucial question (scientifically) is WHEN do they occur?
Is it before the heart stops (cardiac arrest), after the heart restarts, or the unthinkable (for science) during cardiac arrest. Everything else (although interesting) is just a sideshow.
Doesn’t matter about depersonalisation, REM dreaming, seizures, altered blood gasses, G lock, neurotransmitter blockade, DMT, or whatever one chooses from the list of over twenty theoretical explanations. Parnia’s work will give us the answer for certain, one way or the other, eventually.
If they are conclusively demonstrated to occur when the brain is offline, then that’s the end of the ‘endless’ debate. Then we have consciousness without a brain and the textbooks will have to be rewritten (partly). *And all the other scientists and philosophers Robert has interviewed, will then have to concentrate on what that means for us and our place/existence in the universe.
@Ben. Best of luck with the book ! I don’t agree with all of it, not that that matters of course.
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Good to hear from you. Yes, you are right. Until we have that data, nothing else really matters. I understand why you are taking a time out. I am in a bit of a holding pattern now. Got the book out, sold quite a few copies and have received good feedback, although like you, not everyone agrees with everything I say. I was expecting that! I am expecting something to come out of one of the ongoing Parnia lab studies for long, maybe this fall.
@Tom. It is a good interview but it is a little bit old. I am sure it is at least 2 or 3 old. It has been reuploaded, so it seems to be new.
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Yep, that’s what I thought. It has been reloaded onto Youtube or something to make it look up to date.
Thanks, Ben !
I certainly do agree that there are far too many (veridical) cases, for it to be some kind of “delusion”. There’s no doubt something amazing is occurring. This recent and very well produced French documentary, is well worth a look.
The young doctor in the opening sequences, Dr François Lallier, has recently conducted a study of 118 (I think it was 118) patients in order to determine if those with psychiatric and neurological conditions (those prone to seizures and hallucinations/and those prone to delusions etc) were more likely to report an NDE. He found that the reverse was true. Those prone to psychiatric /neurological conditions had fewer NDE’s.
Later on, we see (Materialist) Professor Stephen Laureys of the Coma science group in Liege, admit that… “It’s fascinating to see that when we have heart attacks (he means cardiac arrest) and there is no blood flow, we can still have these perceptions and emotions that are so detailed”.
“What they’ve seen and what they’ve experienced is not compatible with the laws of physics and biology…they’ve passed through walls, met dead people”
Now, I’m not suggesting that Laureys is necessarily accepting what they say at face value. But…he is at least not attempting to deny/rubbish what his patients have told him. Surely some progress here from the mainstream science camp?
Cannot reply to Tim for some reasons – it has been demonstrated years ago, it happens not before or after but directly (during) within range when heart is stopped, and all the correlated functions are seized bottom to top. No consciousness should be possible at that point if you believe it produced by brain, not even slight reflex controlled by brain is available, “demonstration” was only a question for bunch of (don’t want to say clowns) some people who are suggesting merely idiotic explanations such us hallucinations or open eyes during heart arrest and thus registering visual information. all that is bs. NDE IS what is only NDE when this is happening in that range, otherwise this is not NDE Tim.
They had two hits of visual and sound registration that can be verified against time and recorded time of death (heart full stop) one – they could not follow, patient was too sick or something, another one was clearly verified. Those are aware 1 results. Again, it was never the question for many others who was involved into this, it was from the very beginning to have bullet prof medical evidence, that is done with formal research. It was done. they have it. but even before 20 years of aware 1 it is clear that recollections was at the time when no heart\brain function is presented, sometimes as deep as 30-45 min down to cardiac arrest and people are able to reconstruct what was happening around. It is hard to believe for the most normal materialistic human beings but this is not a question anymore officially – it is happening exactly in that time like it or not. lol… deal with it. It is also impossible coincidence that some many people have independently so similar experiences just by chance, chances of that are zer0. but it is also very true that in the bundle of NDE you have blend of not actual NDE but mixture of all kinds of things that mixed, pressed and create this distorted vision of.
It doesn’t mean though anything and just in principle talking of afterlife makes no sense at all, no one knows what life is, no one knows what consciousness is and how it exists, whether it has quantum nature or any other type of matter that we know nothing about.
So Parnia passed that point of proving anything while back, his research has wider target – improve survivability and well being after Cardiac Arrest and shed the light on what our consciousness is, but it is important to remember, until people have a slightest clue on what consciousness is – it is impossible to draw any conclusion on death experiences or what is after and how is it happening except very simple – this is not by chance.
here is another little spin… all that OBE, and details are irrelevant, it doesn’t really matter, I mean it is, but only for people to make them feel better about their belief system as you cannot draw anything out of the fact was it true or not, as long as you don’t know what consciousness is, it is just descriptive science, there is no mechanisms how it is fixed in the brain, what produces is, what is happening when biological function of brain is over… there is no way we can move with any of those forward with Parnia or not, with knowledge that it is true or not, but collecting data and experimenting has itself important function, accumulating statistical data and data overall will result into some ideas, this is one side and this is what Parnia openly does, and the second:
True NDE or what he is calling TED (transformative experience of death) has a vital function of life review, with reflection on your iteration with other people, it makes sense only in two cases: either you have a chance to “return” – whatever it means – back to your body so death is not final for you yet, or (in case if this life review happens regardless of this possibility) you will have another life.
This life review is most important part.
Hope it makes sense 😉 haha…
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Hi Tim, thank for posting the French video. Re Laureys I I remember this from 2013 by him and his team … “The present study shows that NDE memories have more characteristics than any kind of memory of real or imagined events and of other memories of a period of coma or impaired consciousness following an acquired severe brain dysfunction. In our opinion, the presented data demonstrate that NDEs cannot be considered as imagined events. We rather propose that the physiological origins of NDEs lead them to be really perceived although not lived in reality (i.e., being hallucination- or dream-like events), having as rich characteristics as memories of real events. The amount of characteristics of NDE memories probably is further enhanced by their here-identified high emotional and self-referential values. This suggests that memories of NDEs are flashbulb memories of really perceived hallucinations.”
As you say he has now said … “What they’ve seen and what they’ve experienced is not compatible with the laws of physics and biology…they’ve passed through walls, met dead people” That’s quite a statement and I find it fascinating in 7 or so years a materialistic explanation doesn’t seem to have made any progress. He’s very open-minded.
Hi Orson, really about what you have spoken of, in the video Dr. Francois Lallier said about his medical thesis … “One of the suppositions and conclusions of my thesis is that everyone has an NDE during a cardiac arrest, but not everyone remembers. For example, children have an extraordinary memory compared to older people and in cardiac arrest, around 60% of children recall their near-death experiences afterwards, whereas only 15% of adults do.”
Wrt what you said … “only 10-20% of elderly adults reports NDEs, whereas 80-90% of kids who die and are resuscitated report NDEs. As a reminder if you read my book, changes in memory function with age do not account for the difference.”
Not being contentious, just thought you might be interested! He “does” conclude everyone has an NDE but children remember better.
Hi, Alan !
Yes, that study by Laureys and his team on the magnitude of patient’s NDE memories, was very significant! They weren’t expecting what they found. I thought it was fascinating too, that Laureys would even ‘allude’ to those elements of the near death experience that contradict the laws of physics (passing through walls etc and meeting dead relatives)
Many academics will not even admit that such reports even exist, never mind discuss them. So perturbed and threatened are they, by what these patients have to say, they will usually either laugh, get very angry or just ignore you completely.
A friend of mine has spoken to Dr Laureys specifically about veridical out of body experiences during NDE’s. Laureys told him that he is well aware of them, but if he diverts from the assumption that they are produced by the brain, he could lose his support for studying this phenomenon.
Belgium has some of the most active, hard line and vocal sceptics anywhere in the world and ideas such as separate consciousness are not something that they want to know about. In their ‘eyes’, such ‘nonsense’ was consigned to the dustbin, hundreds of years ago in the enlightenment.
Hi Alan, how long has it taken me to notice this!! August through November were a complete write off for me. Getting back on an even-keel now. If you bought my book, you will know that I have answered this very clearly citing research that looks at degradation of memory over time, and the disparity between children and elderly adults remembering NDEs cannot be accounted for so easily.
I’m an NDE proponent so you don’t have to convince me that out of body experiences really do occur during cardiac arrest and other life threatening situations (and non life threatening too).
Where I disagree with you is that although Parnia’s study contained two great examples of veridical out of body experiences during cardiac arrest, one of them (Mr A) exceptional and *conclusive, it could be argued ! (*logical deduction)
However, cases such as those, as persuasive as they are, are not enough to turn science on it’s head. There’s still wriggle room for persistent/mischievous sceptics to suggest that those cases didn’t really happen that way…the patient got the information from somewhere else and then retrospectively built it into his NDE and then forgot that he did it etc etc and so on and so forth. It’s highly unlikely, we know, but that’s the state of play.
The only evidence that will ever be acceptable to mainstream science is scientifically timed and controlled double blind hits, such as Aware 2 is trying to find. And many more than just one or two. Just about the most challenging and difficult experiment to carry out. It’s a credit to Sam Parnia, that he’s willing to even undertake such a study. Sceptics wouldn’t, to ‘prove’ the reverse 😉
Ok, thanks Tim and about the mentality over in Belgium. Didn’t know that! I’ve also always suspected these top guys know all about veridical NDEs but the approach to kind of work at the problem “the other way” by eliminating any conventional explanation seems the only way to convince die-hard science overall. “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
Tim, I was not trying to convince you, I red your posts before – it was pure rhetoric fun from my end.
What I do think though that none of proof will convince anyone, it is inconvincible in principle until you know the nature of phenomena of consciousness and few more aspects of death – like what is life. That is what I meant by saying this is all irrelevant and belief system will always dominate over any evidence you can throw. Thus I see Sam Parnia is not trying to prove anything, he is solving altogether different sidelining issue – improve normal life after cardiac arrest and shed a bit of light on consciousness. He is extremely intelligent doctor and clearly understands his limits on the topic. His study is not constructed now to convince anyone it targets completely different elements and until there is a compelling theory of consciousness with its own experiments and proves and results and yada yada yada – we will never understand NDE, they are stating this clearly including Parnia – we do not understand neither how is this happening, nor mechanisms behind. It was and it is and it will be a “mystery”.
As well, there is no need (to my opinion) to “turn science on its head” as this is irrelevant and moreover will not bring you anywhere, the fact that some people who are on the edge will admit – yea… people do see things when they die – means absolutely nothing as no one understand (see above) how this is happening. Materialistic science was and is successfully and at its best by being skeptical all the way through to the bottom. Double blind hits, triple blind hits, quadruple blind hits… all goes nowhere. There always be significant doubts until “we” understand how it works in principle.
Like one of my past scientific teachers used to say we can correlate statistically number of herrings in the can with sun activity and get correlation close to 0.99… it means nothing unless you know the physical fundamentals behind.
I don’t mean to disappoint anyone, but it is little naïve to wait from Sam Parnia any sort of “ultimate proof”… proof of what? And what does it mean…?
As well, Sam Parnia not by chance is removing all borderline cases as they create this uncertainty, and mix actual NDE with enormous range of events that might have similar nature (like consciousness may under specific circumstances be separate from the brain) and focus on clear cut situation which is actual death=cardiac arrest. As then you are dealing with only NDE and not all that cultural and other aspects that added.
I’ve read your thoughts carefully and I agree with some of them…we don’t know what life is (we don’t actually, you’re right of course)..we don’t know what consciousness is objectively (observing it, that is). True.
However, we do know our own consciousness subjectively (I think–therefore I am), all of us do, and together we can share our subjective experience of consciousness with each other, as we are doing now.
With the advances in resuscitation (bringing people back from being dead) we now have an opportunity to discover something important about that/our subjective consciousness, whether it is created by the bump and grind of neurological processes (bottom up) or whether it is perhaps independent and originating from somewhere else (top down).
So I completely disagree with you that Parnia is somehow on a fool’s errand (as they say–wasting his time) or words to that effect. In my opinion, his work is absolutely crucial and necessary and has the potential to change the world for the better.
If everyone finally agrees (in 2050;) ) that consciousness (all that is really important about us) continues after death, then it opens up a whole new world (literally). We cannot then justify continuing to do what we do to each other, surely.
Propagating wars, accumulating wealth, trashing the planet, the list is endless, isn’t it ? If we know once and for all that our real self is an immortal entity/being of some kind and not just a physical and temporary “blip” , then won’t we behave (unanimously) in a more gentle, kinder and civilised way with regards to everything?
Then again, as humans go, including myself, I can well imagine the answer to that being…no. But I still think Parnia has to continue.
Alan said >”the approach to kind of work at the problem “the other way” by eliminating any conventional explanation seems the only way to convince die-hard science overall. “Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”
It’s a fair point, Alan. We have to bear in mind, though, that after nearly 47 years of eliminating the now over twenty proposals, scientists as a whole still refuse to accept the only explanation that actually fits/explains the data. So, a process of elimination, yes but Parnia is also going to have to prove it.
Feels I wasn’t explaining myself clearly. Sure Sam Parnia is one of a kind front-line researcher that was brave enough to go into this territory while committing to use solid scientific method, he is clearly amazing fella in the field.
And sure, his research should be continued, and yes it is really important to go further down this route and accumulate data (that will possibly over the years and decades convert in to quality, results and in some new understanding.
That is all given, I absolutely support it and curious like everyone else. And no – Sam Parnia is not fooling himself, but some people do.
Like immortality is impossible in modern science framework, and not because it is impossible in principle, but because principals of this immortality are completely unknown. And fundamentals that must be there to support more or less wider acceptance of a such thing are not existing.
Basically what you are (forgive me if you are not, take it as a figure of speech) striving for is to jump to final conclusion regarding that and resolve some earthly features “accumulating wealth, trashing planet… etc” based on Sam Parnia research.
I am sorry Tim, you have my sympathy and respect but this is not possible – this things are way-way more complex. And you cannot skip answers to some (not even all) questions that I mentioned before (life, consciousness, origins in wide scale of things, origin of laws, molecular machines and so on, list is huge).
So even to spin anything of immortality we need to understand what arrow of time is (in terms of science) and it is nowhere close to that, remember from many NDEers – timelessness? What do you do with that?
That is where I see hard stop – not in prove of whether experience of death and recollections are real. You ask me – of course they are real, of course it is happening during full heart stop, surely people got somehow withdrawn from what we call “our reality, time, life” but there is absolutely zero fundamental understanding how is that possible, zero theories that are not just descriptive but give you scientifically falsifiable method to test it. Except simple description of facts. You cannot draw chemistry of physics of NDE process or estimate it qualitative characteristics, or predict anything out of vague – 10% of cardiac arrest will have it – this is a real truth to that and the sooner most of folks accept it, the sooner it will start become more credible field. As even here (with all respect and I don’t want to offend anyone!) even here, I see UFO, religion, mystiques of all kinds… or expectations that we will know by specific timeframe if we are immortals.
So yes, kudos to Sam, and I wish he gets financing to continue his research, it is very-very important, but no, we won’t know the answer if we are immortals, not now not in 50 years, lets try to resolve simple issues, like how that damn molecules got stick to each other to form one simple living cell… as long as it here it got here somehow – there got to be the way, natural or supernatural, but there is a way of doing it… lol by itself, or with someone’s helps haha
So I vote of Parnia, and sure NDE is real thing, but I do see that he reasonably avoids involving himself into philosophical or theological discussions and rightly so. He is a doctor, he cares about patient and he is a practical researcher, he follows where evidence leads him, but he is not theoretical physicist who can suggest underlying explanations to this nor this is possible within one human life, he is a practitioner, he executes experiments and publish his results while doing intensive care… the research itself is fantastic and hard to walk by without paying attention. Surely we will hear from him something like “it is entirely possible we go into different dimension after death” and he is absolutely right, it is possible as we don’t understand nature of conciseness at all, but actual terms, and what exactly is happening will be possible to comprehends only after we understand the nature of life and everything else connected to what we call conscious, intelligent life. It doesn’t mean though we should not investigate, actually vice versa…
Oleg said>”You ask me – of course they are real, of course it is happening during full heart stop, surely people got somehow withdrawn from what we call “our reality, time, life” but there is absolutely zero fundamental understanding how is that possible, zero theories that are not just descriptive but give you scientifically falsifiable method to test it. Except simple description of facts. You cannot draw chemistry of physics of NDE process or estimate it qualitative characteristics, or predict anything out of vague – 10% of cardiac arrest will have it – this is a real truth to that and the sooner most of folks accept it, the sooner it will start become more credible field.”
Hi, again Oleg ! I’m not sure what exactly it is you are arguing for. Let me try and simplify it. I don’t think (and never did) Parnia’s work will tell us how the universe is set up, existentially, how and why it came into existence, why there is a soul of us and what actually happens to it after death. It’s forever unknowable, I would have thought.
It will, however, tell us that materialism isn’t correct, that there is something else. We can surely and justifiably, logically deduce that if we have a soul, we must have some kind of purpose beyond the proliferation of our gene pool.
That’s it for me, I don’t know what you want me to say. I also think (but I don’t know) that everyone has an NDE when they die. I suspect that everyone does, just that midazolam wipes out the memory of it in most patients.
And I forgot to say best regards at the end of that post, sorry !
My limitations in this regard are very great, but commenting once with people who deal with neurological issues, they told me that when cardiac arrest occurs (which we all go through at the time of our death) brain cells do not die instantly, it is a process, and in addition certain substances are released in the brain. Some consider that near-death experiences occur in that period of time in which the brain is not yet fully dead. Sorry if I have not expressed myself well, my English is not very good
Alan said>”they told me that when cardiac arrest occurs (which we all go through at the time of our death) brain cells do not die instantly, it is a process, and in addition certain substances are released in the brain”
Hi again, Alan. The brain cells don’t die instantly. Rather, the electrical and chemical activity that is thought to be responsible for the creation of our mind, our thoughts…disappears after 5-10-20 seconds of cardiac arrest.
If blood flow is restarted, the brain cells begin to communicate with each other again (apparently) and our mind is re-created. The disappearance of the mind and the destruction of the brain cells that are thought to be responsible for it, are two different things. I’m not an expert, just to point out. These are just facts.
Hah! Nope, not me. ’twas Anthony.
Hah! Nope, not me. ’twas Anthony.
Apologies, Alan !
Very interesting !
i send a e-mail to Parnia lab,they tell me the study are extended at least two years.
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@Tim thank you for the documentary, I really enjoyed it. I am not sure statements from Laurey reflect any change in his convictions but at least he seems more calmed and open than he seems when reading his articles.
Regarding the research on PL, I know this was previously discussed. In the abstract Parnia mentions “some data suggests that this lucid death related episodes might correlate with surges in electrocortical activity”. But in radio interviews (including the one from December 2020) he keeps saying NDE occurred when the brain shuts down, and that conciousness seems to continue after the heart has stopped and the patient has gone beyond the threshold of death…etc. Do you guys feel he is referring to surges observed in 2013 and 2011, or he is referring to his own research? Maybe Panria Lab would answer that?
Anyway, this is still related to the mistery of his 2019 results, he never mentioned a correlation…
Parnia mentions “some data suggests that this lucid death related episodes might correlate with surges in electrocortical activity”
Hi, Mery ! It seems to me, it’s just a “nod” (noted reference) to the work of Lakhmir Chawla and his observation of a brief surge in the EEG after the stoppage of the heart, also with Jimo Borjigin and her rat studies.
Remember, Parnia has to come at this from an entirely materialistic perspective in order to get approval for the study. He has to supply a satisfactory reason why he thinks terminal lucidity warrants investigation. What he can’t do (officially) is say that he’s looking for evidence that the mind begins to function (again) without a brain (in some cases of terminal lucidity).
So, he’s clearly going to put EEG on the heads of patients dying from alzheimers/ dementia and related diseases near the end of their lives, to see if periods of lucidity can be correlated to the time when there is no brain activity (on the EEG)=mind without brain, basically.
So are they purposefully trying to make Parnia fight for them or has he really now changed his tune? His recent interviews don’t seem to suggest so, so I think they’re merely just playing their last card on hand:
That article is just trash journalism. Assorted jumbled up quotes from Parnia with additional statements he’s never ever made. Just published to get clicks, that’s all.
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Hi Yitz, I looked at the whole interview on Oz Talk (it’s partial in the Express link) and didn’t hear the bit that Sean Martin in the Express quoted about “scanning”,
“Dr Parnia says there are scientific explanations for these reactions, and says seeing people is not evidence of the afterlife, but more likely the brain just scanning itself as a survival technique.” When I googled it I got a link back to here in 2018 and also Tim’s comment!
The rest of the actual quotes from Sam in the Express are pretty accurate though.
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Here’s the link to another Dr. Oz talk with Sam. There’s several in succession. Fascinating.
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That scanning part is from an article from Oct 2017 if I remember correctly. Livescience if I correct and scanning was in the article but was as far as I can recall to another person. It over time got rehashed with same parnia as both were in the same original article but the scanning part was not from sam parnia and I believe in another article he mentioned that quotes get missattributed to himself. I could be wrong however
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Heavens! I wonder if people deliberately do it trying to find crumbs to discredit the whole thing.
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No. I just think just put things together in some papers with cross referencing them but no I’ll intent. Just quick deadlines amd that sort of pressure to fill papers etc
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Earliest I can find from Nov 2017
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Thanks, I sometimes suspect conspiracies! 🙂
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Generally just poor journalism. I never think conspiracy, but I do think ineptness haha
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All of you guys are awesome and right. Poor journalism to the tee.
A related study that sam parnia was involved in
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Thanks Z. Certainly seems to be a different type of population to those in the NDE cohort.
I guessing as well as parnias name last he just one of the assistant researchers as opposed to a lead one
Here’s a question that might have already been answered (albeit I forget the responses if so).
If one’s in a coma, and has low blood pressure, I believe that with little probes called depth electrodes (as well as pressure and oxygen monitors), they can still detect small amounts of electrical activity going on in the brain whereas conventional EEG monitors would suggest one has died. Thus it seems to some that perhaps OBE experiences/NDEs are really just delusions made by the subcortical structures which are still active even before resuscitation.
So how is this false?
There certainly seems to be an overlap in the definition of the “awareness during resuscitation experience” and NDEs, as they define the inclusion criteria in their study as “… subjects who reported memories and/or awareness from their resuscitation…”
Guess the old Greyson scale needs an update.
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I’ve been following this blog for a long time.
I believe this interview with Sam Parnia has not been referred to here. It was uploaded to Youtube about 4 months ago.
(Unfortunately, my English is not that good. I use the Googel translator to write.)
So you’re suggesting that Parnia did say what the article claims he said? Could you send us the YouTube link?
Oh, sorry. I don’t know, why the link to the interview was missing. Here it is:
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Interview from Oct 2017
Steen, does that mean that Parnia’s team is suggesting that people experience NDE when being given CPR, and hence, are at least somewhat conscious (read: not dead, so no afterlife experience)? Seems so.
But someone said not long ago that he and his team think differently about this.
I don’t believe in this article Parnia refers to NDEs. They are studying PTSD and people who reports memories of their resuscitation. It seems that Parnia is trying to separate NDEs during CPR from other types of memories and concious experience during CPR that are not NDEs. As they previously published in Resuscitation, people used to use the term NDE for all concious experience during CPR and some of them are not. I was told by other researcher that Parnia is doing a similar classification thing on transcendental experiences during other circumstances that are not NDEs but might have been wrongly classified as such.
Yitz said >”does that mean that Parnia’s team is suggesting that people experience NDE when being given CPR ”
Patients do have NDE’s/OBE’s whilst receiving CPR, but the CPR is NOT the cause of the NDE. CPR is simply an attempt to get (some) blood into the brain so that the cells don’t die (of oxygen and nutrient starvation– so the experts tell us).
Mischievous pseudo sceptics and ideological debunkers like Woerlee, have attempted to attribute cardiac arrest NDE’s to CPR, suggesting that sufficient blood flow into the brain can be generated to return the patient to consciousness during the procedure, and hence the patient somehow “confabulates” an NDE whilst conscious during CPR.
In fact CPR only very rarely returns a patient to consciousness during the procedure (according to Parnia) and that’s usually when the heart had never actually fully stopped in the first place, just that the pulse had been undetectable, but the heart was actually still functioning.
Parnia and his team are only collecting data from patients that have been in cardiac arrest for at least 5 minutes, so after that amount of time, the patients are obviously dead, because if they weren’t, the medical team wouldn’t still be working on them (CPR) to try to save them (in the vast majority of cases– 85%– unsuccessfully)
And administering effective CPR means compressing the chest to the correct depth, which usually involves breaking the patient’s ribs and sometimes the sternum, so if the patient was conscious during CPR in a normal way, the pain of having his/her bones broken would be horrendous and traumatic.
But they never report this trauma nor do they report the pain of the defibrillator shocks, which would be just as bad, or even worse (?) than their bones snapping.
Sceptics can’t have it both ways. If they want to suggest that patients are somehow conscious during CPR in order to explain veridical NDE/OBE’s, then those patients would also feel tremendous pain and anguish in addition, but they almost without exception, never do.
I think Mery below is probably correct in that Parnia seems to be attempting to distinguish (tidy up the field of play) between these symptoms, so that he can be more precise about the field and avoid confusion which has led to all kinds of silly nonsense being attached to NDE’s in general.
Hi Tim, my understanding from one of the posters at AHA 2019 was that they had detected sufficient brain activity to possibly generate consciousness during CPR, as a part of the AWARE study. They never correlated this with conscious recollections though, and I know that you are going to say the brainwaves were the wrong type, but the conclusions definitely stated that consciousness was possible. Hopefully more detail will follow when the data is finally published in a journal.
I agree with Ben. Back in February Parnia and his team did a review on CPR induced consciousness (it was posted in this forum). I checked the references they evaluated and they are all studies on patients regaining some signs of consciousness during CPR, some of them in full CA (asystolia). All studies stated that effective CPR can restore consciousness, (but patients did not report NDEs nor similar experiences, or their experience was not addressed). So it makes sense that Parnia would also see that CPR would restore some kind of brain activity at some point in some patients. Although his results from aware 2 were a bit incomplete, since no correlation with awareness or recall was made.
Still, in the radio interviews (including the EMRA podcast back in December) he never said that NDEs and veridical perceptions during CPR were due to this EEG activity, nor to the patient regaining consciousness during CPR. He keeps saying “when the brain has shut down”. Even in a review from 2017 he kept stating that those cognitive processes seen in NDEs and observations were not compatible with CA (and CPR) cause the brain is highly disfuncional, etc.
So I still wonder, what his position on NDEs is.
However, what doesn’t make sense to me is this: Parnia is an expert on CA and CPR, and until recently he kept saying that CPR in asystolia can’t induce consciousness. But these studies are not new, some were published back in 2015 and before. So, have his views on consciousness during CPR changed? Or is this all related to better classifications and NDEs are still something unexplainable for him?
Ben, I don’t think the results from Aware 2 on those alpha waves would get published thought, two years have passed now, and no more information on that subject has transcended…
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I’ll take another look at it but whilst I realise we have to be balanced and admit potential weaknesses in our own arguments, I honestly can’t see how being physically conscious during CPR=NDE.
It surely could only be a terrible ordeal leading to PTSD, as has been reported. What the sceptics have done is made the assumption that if CPR can generate some consciousness, then that consciousness must be commensurate with NDE, but there’s no evidence for that.
We’ll just have to disagree on this, Ben but if I am wrong, I’ll certainly admit it and apologise.
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I agree with Tim in that CPR induced consciousness (specially with overt signs of consciousness) are not equal to NDEs/OBEs. Parnia never stated that either.
But published literature is very clear in that good quality CPR can induce consciousness.
There are two important things on this:
– in these kind of reports the patient remembers events (CPR and even conversations) but nothing like NDEs. I don’t know if that is the whole story or the author’s don’t want to go into more details of the memories of these patients…
-Some of these authors quote Parnia’s studies in their references to back up this CPR induced consciousness phenomenon, mixing concepts with NDEs when clearly their patients didn’t have an NDE (some even died without interviewing for recollections). This might explain why Parnia finally got into differentiating the different phenomena.
Still, for me, it makes me wonder how many of the previously classified cases of veridical perceptions OBEs during CA and CPR correspond to the patient just being able to hear conversations…
Ben, is there a possibility that I can share somehow these articles I mention? I have some of them in pdf, I usually get the complete articles through the Hospital Library service. It might be interesting if I could send them to you, Tim or anyone who is interested in reading them.
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No this is not what I was implying. As Mery wrote, I think Parnia et. al. wants to have a more clear definition of NDEs from other awareness experiences during NDEs. I do think it indicates some experiences that have previously been classified as NDEs would instead be classified as awareness during resisciation. I don’t think it negates any of the really interesting NDE accounts.
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@Mery and Ben
I’m quite satisfied that CPR induced consciousness has nothing at all to do with NDE’s specifically. Expert Dr Pim Van Lommel made clear in the book, The Self Does not die, that they are vanishingly rare and usually due to incorrect assessment/diagnosis of the heart rhythm and he should know if anyone does, as he conducted the first and longest prospective study on Near death experience, in the Netherlands.
However, there is something here both of you seem to be missing or forgetting, a rather large elephant in the room. From a purely materialist, reductionist perspective (the current accepted paradigm) even if Parnia’s data reveals CPR induced clear consciousness (which I’d bet anything it won’t) how will that enable those patients to see the picture on the laptop, which is suspended out of sight, up in the air ?
The study is not designed to be focussed on patients potentially opening their eyes (during CPR) nor to hear about trips up tunnels etc; those are ‘artefacts’, interesting, (later for other studies) but not particularly relevant to the main objective, which is can patient’s see a double blinded target out of their sight, during cardiac arrest ? Nothing less than that sighting (of the target) is going to move the debate on with most hard line sceptics anyway, and CPR induced consciousness obviously can’t achieve that.
So for me, I don’t personally want to waste time considering CPR induced consciousness as an explanation. It certainly cannot even begin to explain the vast majority of documented veridical OBE/NDE’s and therefore I can’t see it’s importance.
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Hi Tim, it’s a fascinating discussion and I do agree with you.
“I’m quite satisfied that CPR induced consciousness has nothing at all to do with NDE’s specifically.”
I found this from Sam Parnia (2018). It’s his comment on another doctor’s (very sad) case about awareness during CPR. The other doctor himself said …
“Awareness during CPR is an extremely rare event,”
Parnia … “It is exceedingly rare for people to have actual awareness with external signs of being conscious.”
And he importantly comments further.
So would it be right then for me to say (logically) … “It is not rare for people to have actual awareness without external signs of being conscious.”
In that NDEs or “actual death experiences” (his preferred term) *are* common (as Parnia has said anyway many times) with awareness (and an awareness with very, very special features not explainable by the brain = mind model) but not everyone remembers them due to the reasons he gives (well known).
I’m not being a smartarse, mind.
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That’s an interesting and thought provoking article. I’m amazed and horrified at the story of the man with the dissected aorta being conscious and responsive throughout his cardiac massage.
I have heard of another case like that but it was because the surgeons had the patient’s chest open and were giving manual massage direct to his heart (he also died).
I mean it must have been terrible. We can logically deduce (can’t we?) that he wasn’t even having an NDE/OBE to help him deal with it, otherwise he would not have been able to respond verbally, surely (from a proponents point of view anyway). Don’t know what to think.
I note what this particularly doctor (Lundsgaard) said.
“We know from anesthesia that accidental awareness during operations often lead to post-traumatic distress and decreased quality of life,” Lundsgaard said. “One might suspect that awareness during CPR may be just as stressful.”
I’ll leave it to the experts to sort out. But as I said in the post above, CPR induced consciousness is not going to give us a hit on the target (obviously) and as THAT is the only data that hard line sceptics will accept, I cannot see much point in analysing it.
And it absolutely cannot explain the vast majority of well documented verified OBE/NDE’s in the literature.
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I agree with what most people are saying, including Tim, and as you all know, I believe that NDEs are real and not explained by potential consciousness induced CPR. All I am saying is that due to the existence of these cases, it gives food for the sceptics and makes it a little harder to have a water tight case for NDEs not being CPR induced.
Thanks for thoughtful reply Tim, I found it hard enough to read the article but with the thought that something comforting seems to be waiting. Cheers.
Thanks, Alan !
Yes it certainly seems that something comforting is awaiting us. I found this in the comments section of a You tube video (in Italian). It is an authentic report from an Italian man (I asked him), which demonstrates the consistent paranormal nature of this extraordinary phenomenon…
In Milan 1991 while riding my Vespa scooter, purely by chance I witnessed a very serious accident in which a boy on a motorcycle (who I coincidentally knew well) had been involved in a very serious collision. We were actually great friends. It happened in Via Sforza, almost in front of the Sormani !
When I stopped to take a look, I realised the situation was very serious, he was unconscious, with fractures and internal injuries. There was an ambulance, medical staff around, gauze dressings everywhere, blood all over the road, the stretcher ready. He had even had gone into cardiac arrest. I heard them saying it. I was in total panic, (when I realised who it was) desperate and I called out to him twice, very loudly, almost screaming, no answer !
I thought it was so serious that he might not make it. The firemen came and turned me away. I could see the paramedics crowded over him trying to resuscitate his heart. They took him to the Polyclinic which was a stone’s throw away. He remained in a coma for a few days and later woke up, without the expected serious consequences, apart from needing some surgeries.
The thing that nailed me to the chair when I went to see him was… he told me that he had seen me while he was unconscious, and he was also trying to talk to me from above, as if he were at a height of something like five or six meters.
He told me that he saw himself and the actions/manoeuvres of the doctors, but felt at peace. And then he told me about the tremendously painful feeling of re-entering the body, and also a light that attracted him in another direction.
But the thing that left me amazed is that he accurately described to me the new saddle I had just had put on my Vespa that morning and also the plastic bag that I had left hanging from the wasp hook. He couldn’t possibly have seen them because I’d left the scooter completely out of his sight (even if he had been awake)
I went back to the exact spot to check, I thought maybe he opened his eyes and saw the details, but it was impossible from where he was. It shocked me like never before, but it also gave me some hope. I also thought about brain biochemical reactions… but I actually wish there was something after and I’m a convinced atheist.
That’s a very powerful one! And everything about all this is so personal, really meaning something to us. Considering how tiny we are in a pretty savage cosmos (exploding stars, planet formation etc.) I find it continually surprising that there’s some kind of soft landing. The infinite touches the finite I think I heard once, and it seems rather gently. As my niece used to say, about something else entirely when she was little, tapping her chin, “there’s something going on”.
Tim, I have always found these cases with paranormal phenomena superinteresting, and they always leave me thirsty for more information. Did you talk/write the guy? Did he say anything about their conversation? This would be the things I would like to ask him myself:
Did his friend know beforehand that he was getting a new saddle (with or without description?), Was he normally carrying a plastic bag with him during his vespa rides?
I think these are the kind of questions NDE researchers would ask, right?
I am not being skeptical, I am being supercurious, sorry.
Hi, Mery thanks for your interest ! Every question you ask is already answered in the story itself. If the injured young man knew beforehand that his friend was getting a new saddle, then he wouldn’t have told his friend (with the new saddle) in such a manner of complete surprise, would he.
However, even leaving aside the new saddle, how could he have even known his friend was there on his scooter ? He (the injured man) was lying on the ground dead.
He also said he was floating in the air watching everything from above. I’m not sure why someone would invent that ? I mean in Parnia’s Aware 1 study, the vast majority didn’t report floating anywhere.
If NDE’s are retrospective confabulations after the fact, then why doesn’t everyone confabulate a floating NDE, I’m sure they’d like one. But this young man was able to gain veridical paranormal knowledge that he couldn’t possibly have collected with his physical senses.
Lastly, there are literally hundreds of these cases now. The ‘Self Does not Die’ is chock a block with them. So, we either accept cases like this or reject them as just another anecdote and sweep it under the carpet.
The problem is, it’s unscientific to ignore repeating patterns as delusions and misconceptions. There’s so many of these cases now secreted by pseudo-sceptics (not you BTW) under the carpet, that the furniture is starting to fall over.
Here’s another one….
Before I became a nurse I worked as an EKG technician. This was the early 1970’s and EKG machines and telemetry weren’t as sophisticated as now, so I needed to respond to code situations to record heart rhythm and responses to medications. One day a young man coded.
He was in asystole for a long period of time, and I don’t know how long before I got there. When the MD’s were going to call the code and announce time of death, the patient’s heart spontaneously started beating again so everyone went back to getting him into a sustainable non-life threatening rhythm, but the whole time I was there, he was not conscious.
The next day in CCU, he was sitting up in bed and when I walked in to get an EKG, I introduced myself and he smiled. He said, “I know who you are. I saw you yesterday.”! I said something like ‘ I don’t think so because when I saw you you weren’t aware of anything at the time. He said, “I know. The doctor told me I was dead!” But I saw all of you and what you were doing!”
He continued to tell me he went through a tunnel with a white light at the end. He said his relatives were there, but when he got to the light, God told him he had to come back to finish his work! He said he hung close to the ceiling until somehow he was pulled back into his body-which he said wasn’t very pleasant. He said he told the doctor but the doctor went, “Huh!!” and walked out of the room.
He was not the only one I heard this from. I started asking patients who coded if they remembered anything, and I got story after story with slight variations. Many didn’t want to talk at first because they had already told someone who thought they were nuts. I just told them if they wanted to tell me I wouldn’t judge them or think they were nuts. After they would tell me, I would tell them they weren’t alone, that I had heard others say essentially the same thing.
It was the conviction with which these patients told their stories, and many times I was there when it happened and knew they spoke the truth. This has changed my life and guided me to become more spiritual and accepting that we are spirits (souls) having human experiences that don’t end with death.
Hi Orson, there’s been an essay contest on the survival of consciousness from the Bigelow Institute for Consciousness Studies.
“Sam Parnia M.D. Ph.D et. al.” have been announced as one of the winners. Congratulations to them!
All essays should be on the site fairly soon so that’s surely going to be as comprehensive an overview as one can imagine.
Background on Bob Bigelow, billionaire, builds modules for the ISS (there’s one attached now) and has researched UFOs, which are now being investigated officially by the US Gov and once owned and scientifically studied the notorious Skinwalker Ranch in Utah (a new team is there now).
Thanks, Alan ! I’ve no idea what that is all about, but sadly, Sam and his associates only received the lowest prize, $20,000. As they are the ones conducting the cutting edge work on consciousness studies (arguably anyway) and most in need of funding, it’s a bit disappointing. I note that there are some very deserving names on there, though, to many to name, of course.
Tim, I only found it a few weeks ago though I’ve been following Bob Bigelow and the Skinwalker stuff for years. There’s a rabbithole for sure. But at least Sam Parnia is in there! On a quick glance the winners represent NDEs, mediumship studies, consciousness studies.
Wow half a million bucks for an essay. Not bad work! Lots of familiar names on the list. Good find Alan.
Bigelow certainly drew out a lot of good people!
Here is the source of the data where Sam claims a huge number of people have had an NDE (from his essay contest):
“In 2020, researchers at New York University commissioned the most
comprehensive international poll of the general population to date. This was carried out by Opinion Research
Business (ORB) among 6,019 people from diverse religious and cultural backgrounds in the United Kingdom,
United States, France, China, Thailand, Brazil and Syria. This poll indicated that the overall prevalence of a
recalled experience of death is 11%…”
But that wont tell us how they came to that conclusion since it was commisioned by a survey company.
I encourage everyone here to try and contact them!
UFOs are real . What’s really interesting is the high strangeness of them. Congress wants to know more of the biological effects of the phenomenon.
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Bigalow paid up to Jeffrey Mishlove Beyond the Brain. We would recognize most of the paper. Ben should have submitted his book. I have been working on UAP . Not here much when I am ….it’s whatever Tim says.I
Btw Shermer skeptic of everything joined Project Galileo.
Skinwalker book great read but not as rigorous as Elizondos AATIP or Parnia.
I think my book is too controversial to have appealed to them, but it would have been nice to have tried. I will just have to make the half million through sales…only need to sell another 499,000 copies!
Hello, I’ve been following this blog for a quite long. I discovered Parnia’s work 2 years ago. Although aware 1 was quite impressive I’ve got a feeling that aware 2 did not deliver any strong results or some kind of physical evidence. I’m a little disappointed that since November 2019 Parnia is silent. Should that mean that he is changing his opinions?
I mean, why there are so many anecdotal cases of people seeing things from.above (like the Italian boy) and not the pictures on top of shelves in a controlled study?
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It does not automatically mean that he changes or changed his view. He definitely has been busy and then since February 2020 with the covid situation in NYC where he works he simply has been more than busy. About your point with the anectodes, well that’s the big question. I always like to think that if I know nothing about Parnia’s research and then suddenly get sick and float around in a hospital, that I might care about other things and won’t concentrate on certain pictures in the ceiling.
Hello Maria, I am quite skeptical about what some are trying to do with near death experiences. Years ago I suffered from sleep paralysis and on one occasion I saw myself from above (I was sleeping in bed), but what I saw was not exactly how my bed was arranged and how I was lying in it. My opinion in this regard is that the brain can recreate its environment in a certain way, also influenced by what its senses perceive, but that does not mean that what it believes is true. Welcome to this great blog
Your sleep paralysis experience is not uncommon and certainly not unique for sceptics of NDE’s to relate, often in an effort to suggest that there is nothing extraordinary or unusual about out of body experiences, even during NDE’s.
However, it is simply an anecdote, and I’m sure you (as a sceptic) will be more than aware that sceptics (such as yourself) give no credence whatsoever to anecdotes, even anecdotes such as the case of the Italian scooter rider above. So, forgive me but I can give no credence to your report, either.
More importantly and as I’ve continually tried to point out (to sceptics), the research that will actually settle this question once and for all (eventually) is being carried out on patients who have objectively died (cardiac arrest).
In cardiac arrest, you don’t dream anything, your brain is not functioning after 10 seconds. You are dead and there should be zero experience, period. In the last Aware study paper on NDE’s, a case was reported of a man hearing an automated defibrillator twice give the command to shock the patient.
As the patient’s heart was stopped (= zero blood flow into the brain and therefore zero brain activity) the man should not have been able to hear or remember anything, if the brain is responsible for consciousness.
And yet he did and he also accurately described his surroundings, including the consultant doctor he couldn’t have seen (from his position on the bed lying down behind a raised curtain) and his appearance (a chunky fella he was) how he was dressed, bald head with blue hat (he could tell by the position of the hat that he was bald)
You sceptics have attempted to label this case as just another anecdote, of course, but that won’t wash. As Ben correctly pointed out, it was collected during a clinical trial looking for that effect and therefore cannot be labelled as an anecdote.
Finally, just to add that paranormal researcher Charles Tart recorded a successful hit on a blind target ( the target number was 25132) with a woman (Miss Z) during REM sleep, in his experimental laboratory. She floated out of her body (she claimed) and saw the target accurately.
What did the sceptics say? It must have been a fraud or she must have been up to something (trickery) or Tart was simply lying or mistaken. There you have an indication in a nutshell of what’s really going on here.
I am quite skeptical of how some people treat near death experiences, but I assume they exist, that is not a problem for me, and I also believe that with time they will be explained from a physiological point of view, nothing paranormal or that indicates a life after death. Before starting on these issues, I did firmly believe that we transcend death, but once I entered, I investigated with people involved and my belief was greatly weakened. However, I will always be totally open to something surprising
Mary, hello and welcome. I don’t think Parnia is totally silent, cause he has been interviewed twice on resuscitation and NDE (see the link of this post) since 2019.But I agree he is silent about more details on aware 2 results, probably because there are none (I bet he doesn’t have the EEG recordings of the audio target). However, I find him ambiguous now: his very recent work is now making a distinction between NDEs and other conscious experiences during CA/CPR, but in the interviews he seems to say the same statements as before (like, “when the heart stops and we go beyond the threshold of death our psyche doesn’t get annihilated, etc) and he is not adding “cause CPR restores brain activity”.
Tim, I believe that we should be cautious and add that though CA means no blood flow to the brain and no brain activity, research by Parnia showed that bits of EEG activity were recorded during CPR in CA patients (in asystolia). Of course, any correlation with the patient experience is missing here.
I too suffer from sleep paralysis. It reproduces the place I am lying on (the couch, the bedroom), however, it gets mixed with dream like situations and if I see myself it is usually like I was lifting my head and see my legs (with different clothes). I remember twice “escaping” my body, and I mean escape cause it feels like fighting to get up and being like under a thick layer of water. Never floated. Once I kind of saw my own head as if I was twisting inside my body and escaping, but once I “escaped” the whole situation outside the couch area was wrong: the staircase was not in place, the floor was full of toys of my children (it was not in reality), and the noise of my husband drilling down in the basement turned to be represented as my mother vacuuming the place…I never got a truly accurate observation during sleep paralysis, and had several of them. Never thought it resembled anything as described in OBEs, but very heavy and dream like, and confusing. But of course, not all sleep paralysis are the same.
A few links and updates
You need to scroll down and get the pdf for parnias essay
All very interesting stuff.
Also forgot to thank Alan for finding the Bigelow link as well so apologies for that.
Great find Z. Hopefully this can serve as a reminder to those who suspect Parnia may no longer be interested or believe in the “supernatural” facet of NDEs – he is clearly still testing the hypothesis in his usual unbiased manner, despite potential criticism.
No apols. Z! Thanks for update on the essays. Still the same positive message from Sam.
I thinking the same myself
This composition is, of course, fairly recent. We’ve been discussing (on here) previously, CPR and it’s association (by sceptics) with NDE. Parnia’s essay included this piece.
“…memories and conscious experiences consistent with a recalled experience of death or external visual awareness (authentic OBE) are quite different from the very rare phenomenon of CPR-induced consciousness (CPRIC), (Woerlee NDE by CPR-my reference, not Parnia’s) which has an incidence of 0.3% during CPR attempts. During CPRIC, patients demonstrate visible external signs of consciousness.
The most common sign of CPRIC is combativeness/agitation, groaning, and eye opening/rolling. Although more studies are needed, episodes of CPRIC likely represent a subset of patients who have regained a heartbeat and are emerging out of coma, but whose pulse remains undetectable when clinicians examine for it by hand.”
Obviously Parnia has the data (although it’s not concluding yet) from Aware 2. He must have seen a lot of it, even though he won’t or can’t say much (yet).
But if he’s been persuaded by a materialistic explanation for OBE/NDE, (as some of the posters on here were alluding to and of course that is possible at least) then it seems odd to me that he would write that (above). Even more so, that he would write his essay in such a proponent orientated manner. He seems to me to be fairly well satisfied that consciousness continues. Or am I reading it wrong ? Can’t really see how, personally.
This is great stuff. I agree, it strongly suggests that he has evidence to support the understanding that NDEs do not arise from CPRIC. Hopefully he will present the data from AWARE II on this before long. The AHA posters obviously suggested that the conditions for consciousness could be induced through CPR, but they never correlated this with any kinds of experience in the poster. Maybe they have further data now that shows no association with NDE, and more specifically that NDEs arise in the absence of sufficient CPR induced physiological parameters that might support consciousness. As you point out, why on earth else would he write in such way?
Will we ever get direct report of memories that are verified upon waking up from death after loss of heart function? Will there ever be secondary witness reports of having the memories of another person during a life review that are later confirmed? Isn’t the latter study possible without any fancy equipment if done ahead of time prospectively?
During a life review its possible to feel and see from another persons perspective. With the fairly high rate of NDEs should it not be possible to deliberately create that experience?
Well done Z, really good find. Amazing how many essays there are, and how many well known names.
No bother. As mentioned before it was Alan who spotted it.
So what did Dr. Parnia say on Twitter? It seems to me that his account has been suspended.
Just all the same stuff on the parnia lab twitter. It maybe some technical issue.
thanks Z for sharing one more source (nyugsom twitter).
Accidentally I came across this article, which I found very interesting and I’m still digesting it 🙂
Interesting article Mary. I actually talk about transduction (without calling it that) in my book. The brain is partly a device that converts electrical signals from nerves etc into experiences. It is an interface between the “construct” that we call the physical world and our consciousness. It is the understanding that underpins the Matrix and dualism. I also discuss how this undermines the materialist understanding of reality and how this physical reality is really just an illusion when you understand quantum mechanics and subatomic particles.
However, I do sometimes find articles like this a little pompous. While in some ways they seem original, in that they are using scientific jargon to describe a phenomenon in novel terms…making it sound like a discovery, in other ways they are just saying something we have known for thousands of years, but have described in more simplistic terms. It is a bit like calling a spade a “a tool with a long handle with a metal rectangular end that is capable of piercing earth or other materials for the purpose of moving quantities of earth from one place to the other.” If you get my drift. It’s still just a spade, and we all know what it is, and what it does without the fancy description .
Still, a good article, especially if it helps atheists move away from their hardened materialistic position by providing a “scientific” bridge of understanding across which they can walk, then all power to the writer!
Ben said ” in other ways they are just saying something we have known for thousands of years, but have described in more simplistic terms.”
“Still, a good article, especially if it helps atheists move away from their hardened materialistic position by providing a “scientific” bridge of understanding across which they can walk”
Totally agree, Ben! Personally (this is just my opinion) I don’t see the brain as a transmitter/transducer/reducing valve in the way that some of the proponent researchers do, although I’m happy with it for the time being.
I’m pretty much a substance dualist, because I think the evidence strongly supports it, even though many people are completely unaware of that, due in my opinion to the largely successful ‘campaign’ by ideological pseudo sceptics to rubbish the data and maintain the status quo.
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Mary, all. The music Robert Eptein’s mum (in the article) keeps hearing and his thoughts on it’s origin reminded me of Saskia Moore’s Dead Symphony. She interviewed many NDE’ers on what they heard during experiences and also scientists, doctors etc. Then composed her work. All this is from 2013 but there’s no link to the full music piece I have ever found. But there’s these,
https://soundcloud.com/saskia-moore/dead-symphony-short-excerpt (part piece)
(Her statement on her piece)
It’s really very lovely and intriguing and I wish she’d release all of it somewhere. It got performed and that’s it! Tantalizing to say the least.
Anyone remember the Solaris film version with George Clooney? This also explores an afterlife in that the planet Solaris eventually gives him one with his dead wife. I always thought Solaris and it’s “ocean” was like a kind of embryonic God making mistakes. And Cliff Martinez has music that seems similar to the above.
Apols. in advance for too many links. Amazing theme she explored.
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They just suspended Sam Parnia’s Twitter account!?
Very odd. I am very wary of the atheist establishment and know that he has faced a lot of opposition. Doubt that would be it though.
I wonder why that is. Like what is the psychological basis of wanting materialism to be true and when you die that you are dead forever. To me if Parnia proves that there is something there when we die and that free will, consciousness, etc are all not illusions, every single human should be celebrating but it seems like some people like the Churchlands, Dennets, etc would be disappointed and terrified
Nic said >”I wonder why that is. Like what is the psychological basis of wanting materialism to be true and when you die that you are dead forever.”
Because the science/philosophical institutions (Academia in general) have (for hundreds of years) officially banished any other philosophical position/belief other than materialism. You are simply not allowed to invoke an ‘intelligence’ behind the universe.
Indeed, such notions are seen as absurd, irrational and childish. Soft headed sentiment for those who can’t face up to death and a source of grand amusement, particularly in the light of what they consider to be irrefutable evidence to support their position.
Added to that, the enormous advancements in science (which have certainly improved our lives greatly) don’t fit well with the belief in some omnipotent deity interfering in our lives from behind the cosmos; a cosmos that they believe they pretty much understand now, to all intents and purposes (they don’t of course).
Spirits, souls etc have been consigned to the dustbin of superstition for over a century. You can almost hear the incredulous, derisory laughter with which the notion that we might have a soul, would be greeted by anyone foolish enough to postulate such an idea.
They really don’t like NDE and it’s implications and do not want it at any price, hence the tremendous efforts to explain it away.
I not overly afay with twitter but unless he closed it himself as established the new parnia lab twitter as the go to instead?
It’s a lot more fun imagining some atheist conspiracy plot that suppressed him just as he had his breakthrough. The only thing I would say is that it does look like ban, rather than a deactivation:
Haha. Very true. But could easily be a spam or hacked account reason for it deactivation. I imagine it that…maybe or maybe not 🤣🤣
I thought of that, too (an atheist conspiracy, haha)! It’s obviously not. I suspect he was suspended rather than banned.
What was the new breakthrough? Is it in that new paper of his for Bigelow Institute?
Yes a new paper….essay to be.precise as opposed to a academic research paper.
But is there anything new in it?
It more tackles the physical interpretations of ndes and asks of the issues that arise with such interpretations.
Bigelow has posted all the essays. It looks like he had a grad student write it. Pim Van Lommel had second place.
Everyone correct me for the fool that I am if wrong, but… these other folks over at the Bigelow Institute… are they just purposing more theory or are they actually conducting empirical evidence to back up their claims?
Because we no longer need “theory,” we need RESULTS!
So why on earth does Dr. Parnia get shoved into the lowest tier, I don’t know!
Guys, I can tell you this, if I were a multi-millionaire, a huge chuck of my money, if not all of it, would be going to fund Dr. Parnia’s objective research.
Now, the next question is to how to become a multi-millionaire?
Yes, the “essays” do not, in my view, add any empirical evidence beyond what we already have. I don’t think that Parnia is short of cash, he got a big chunk, seven figures I think, from the Templeton foundation. The bigger issue for him is recruiting patients for AWARE II. Personally I think the hypothermic surgery study may yield results quicker.
Hi, Ben Did Parnia actually get seven figures (more than one million) from the Templeton foundation ? I thought it was much less than that, about $250,000? Do you have the figures, Ben ?
Hi Tim, he got $1.8m!
Templeton gives Sam Parnia a boatload of cash
Hi Tim, he got $1.8m!
Thanks, Ben, yes I saw that but I remember seeing somewhere else that it was actually a whole lot less, around $250,000. I just don’t know where I saw it, though, so apologies about that. Maybe it will come to me, but you are quite right of course to accept that as a fact because it’s printed there. For myself, I’m still 100% certain but thanks again.
I agree and I contacted them (politely) detailing the missed opportunity (as I saw it). The first prize is absolutely ridiculously huge, as are the second and third to lesser degrees, albeit I would argue Van Lommel deserved it just for his excellent 10 year longitudinal study (back in 1988/92 plus 10), but of course he doesn’t need it now.
The prize money should have been staggered much more closely. $20,000, whilst useful to some of the entrants is of little use to Parnia and he is the only one who can actually move the debate forward. What he could have done with $100,000?? and what a wasted opportunity IMHO.
This was the reply:
Thanks for your observations.
The prize money was not to support research.
Rather it was awarded for the best essay that summarized the evidence for survival of consciousness after death.
These are two fundamentally different goals.
Good you reached out Tim. And these essays surely could spur tons of more research. I like that they are distributing free to “university libraries, hospices and to some religious institutions.” It’s an amazing legacy by Bob Bigelow.
On another note, which people may know, three of the judges are involved in UFO research, Kean, Green and Puthoff. I once met Puthoff at a aerospace propulsion conference (just an observer) in London where I told him about a UFO case me and a friend investigated (a UFO passed in front of a family car, freaking them out). Puthoff said to me “there are things out there”, which he meant as close by. He’s a legend of course, physics, CIA RV program, behind the scenes mover and shaker behind the recent UFO revelations.
“The prize money was not to support research. Rather it was awarded for the best essay that summarized the evidence for survival of consciousness after death.”
Well, that’s… silly.
Anyone can Google “the summarized evidence for survival of consciousness” — what’s important is proving that it happens — again, we all know the theory by now, where’s the results?
I concur with you 100%.
Thanks, Alan! Puthoff and Targ have done some brilliant research, particularly at the Stanford Institute, haven’t they.
UFO’s for me are not as interesting as NDE’s. There’s no doubt that unidentified flying objects exist, they are very well attested to. But are they actually alien space craft ? I don’t know about that; I don’t find the evidence anywhere near compelling enough yet, personally.
I have little doubt that aliens will exist somewhere in the universe but the distances involved make it hard for me to see how a flying saucer for instance ( a physical object) could realistically negotiate the unimaginable distances involved (several light years even to our nearest star=several years travelling at 186,000 miles per second)
Having said that, maybe they have discovered some method of propulsion that we could only dream about, who knows.
Alan, I hope they due spur on more research money, that said…
…And you may not like this, but…
Why UFOs? I don’t think the Bigelow Institute should waste its time and resources on it. I don’t believe in UFOs one bit. That really put a wrench in their creditability as far as I’m concerned. Sorry if my words were offensive.
Hopefully as Ben says, Parnia has enough, Yitz. I don’t think he has, in actual fact but we’ll see.
Tim, hope Orson doesn’t mind this off topic stuff! Re stellar travel, if a craft can get to relativistic speeds, a distance of say 10 light years can be done in say, a week, ship “proper time”, via relativistic time dilation. The onboard clock will show 7 days and the traveller too will only experience 7 days, but an observer on Earth will watch the ship take 10 years by his stationary clock. There’s a fascinating talk by physics Prof. Kevin Knuth who studied in detail with some colleagues the dynamics of the famous Tic-Tac UFOs from 2004 (Nimitz Battle Group). By working out their fantastic accelerations he concluded these objects could easily get to relativistic speeds (propulsion unknown of course) and thus be “excellent interstellar craft” (his words) but would need to be effectively “nomadic” because by the time they arrived back home thousands of years would have passed there, where they may have only experienced a few years visiting various star systems.
I wonder/dream of a connection between *some* of these objects and NDEs – and some ball-of-light phenomena people have seen to do with near-death and related things. Some UFOs just aren’t a technology, like something nuts-and-bolts as is often said, but I wonder that they seem alive, like a form of life in some incredible manifestation of energy.
Alan said >”By working out their fantastic accelerations he concluded these objects could easily get to relativistic speeds (propulsion unknown of course) and thus be “excellent interstellar craft”
Hi again, Alan ! The speed of light (which would be needed to travel to the nearest star would take about 4.3 years at (the speed of light) 186,000 mikes a second)
I think it’s way beyond fantastic acceleration. Light speed would enable something to go around the globe (earth) about six times in one second. I can’t see how anyone could observe that, personally. You couldn’t even blink your eye as fast before the object had completed it’s six laps.
However, I’m not trying to persuade you one way or the other. I might be wrong and I’m always willing to be guided by evidence, because evidence is all anyone >should< be guided by.
I think the evidence that 'mind' can leave the brain under certain circumstances is very persuasive and I think materialism has thus been falsified.
Yitz, more like fact free … Bigelow’s group BAASS were the only science group awarded a $22 million contract working on behalf of the US Defence Intelligence Agency. BAASS studied UFO/UAPS and related paranormal/medical phenomena for 2 years and produced 11 databases of info. A direct result of this a few years down the line is Congress being briefed by US Navy pilots as witnesses and the recognition by the US Gov that the phenomena are real and not US or foreign tech.
I’d rather think NDEs are spiritual rather than alien, UFOish.
Yes and that became AATIP under Lou Elizondo. They focused on UAP. You can look up Inn the paper on Google scholar. We can’t accelerate a gram the way the tic tac moved.
If you want proof of violation of a physical law let’s go over his paper because it shows an object confirmed by radar infrared and observers that this ocvured.
Congress is about to pass the Billing and amendment to set up a UFO office under their supervision. So call Congress.
They are simply the whims of a multimillionaire, these essays do not really represent any advance compared to what has already been known for decades, it is practically a compilation of all that.
I think that perhaps some progress could come from Sam Parnia’s studies, but I also don’t think that anything revolutionary will come out of it, or something that will change the history of science and our conception of the world forever. For now, materialism is what best explains our universe at the moment, although some do not want to accept it. Of course, you must be open-minded to any paradigm shift
Let’s imagine that, in the coming decades, Parnia will prove NDEs/OBEs, wouldn’t that be “revolutionary”?
Near-death experiences are quite accepted even among science, even in some study it was said that a person who had an out-of-body experience was able to spell a combination (I don’t remember if numerical or alphabetical ). That this means that we are immortal beings and that we will live in another dimension for all eternity there is an abyss, and that is what some seem to expect from these studies.
So Anthony, how does materialism explain the existence of the universe, how does materialism explain the origin of life, and how does materialism explain consciousness?
Look forward to your answers! You will be the greatest genius this planet has ever known if you are able to provide scientifically verifiable explanations for those three questions as no other scientist has.
I have a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and during my research became intimately familiar with the chemistry and biochemistry of DNA and proteins. I can say with absolute confidence that there is no viable explanation for the origin of DNA or it’s translation machinery. None. The reason is that there is no conceivable means by which the simplest meaningful DNA or RNA molecule or protein could come into existence by a prebiotic random chemical process. It is actually lunacy to believe this happened. Moreover the fact that DNA is an abstract code is very strong evidence that it was the result of intelligence.
As for the origin of the universe. No one has been able to explain the very first moments when something came from nothing.
As for consciousness, I currently work in Neurology and every neurologist or neuroscientist I have spoken to accepts that we are no closer to understand the nature of consciousness from a scientific perspective than we were a thousand years ago.
Back to the origin of DNA, I wrote a book on it, DNA: The Elephant in the Lab.
Link to my book
As for those questions that you ask, there are hypotheses with much more sense and more accepted by most scientists than anything that may come from something paranormal or different from the materialistic approach, of course you have to be open to any advance or change paradigm
As for consciousness, I agree, there is the difficult problem of consciousness
Anthony, I have spent years researching the field of Origin of DNA, I can assure there is no viable theory that stands up to serious scrutiny. If you know of one, feel free to tell me…just saying that “scientists say” does not cut it. There are plenty of scientists, like myself (I am a scientist), who agree with me. The pet theory of some “scientists” like Dawkins is the RNA world theory, but it is not a theory, it is complete nonsense when you understand chemistry and biochemistry. Only biologists or other non-chemists, who have a very superficial understanding of the underlying molecules and processes believe in it. There is no viable working theory as to how a highly complex molecule that contains abstract code about a different chemical system, or even just one molecule, could come into existence by natural processes. None. No evidence for, lots of evidence against, and some evidence for intelligent initiation. Don’t just say “scientists say” without citing a theory.
David, agree what you say. Just to say it’s the Gillibrand Amendment!
Any news from Parnia and why he has no Twitter anymore? Or does he have an account again? Anyone reached out to him?
I have sent an email, but no response.
Orson, very interesting it’s across the board with neuroscientists. That’s so significant.
Anthony, can you share me a link to the study regarding the combination.
I think Sam Parnia has suspended his account because he has a new one. It is Parnia lab or something like this.
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Well done Snezna, and thank you. I preferred the conspiracy theory version, but as is so often the case , life is predictably dull. At least our intrepid hero lives toTweet another day rather than be carried off by dark materialist forces for being about to announce the illusive hit.
Parnia lab twitter account
Someday, my friend, someday he’ll get the hit.