Moved this here as it got religious for some reason. It is not easy navigating threads on the App!
I am making some changes to the structure of the blog. If you click on blog, you will get everything, but if you hover over blog and allow the menu to drop down you can chose a category. At the moment there are only 2 categories, but I will be adding a few more so that if you are only interested in NDE news…which has been the majority of content, click on that sub gategory.
I have tried using WP Hide Post to avoid sub category posts like religion appearing in the main blog and just keeping the main blog for NDE news, but it corrupts the site, so for the moment the main page will have everything, but you can filter using categories as above.
Comments welcome here…if you hate it, or have suggestions how I can improve it or for new categories, go ahead and let me know. Current thinking on categories:
Thread for posting NDEs
Thread for science of consiousness
Thread for other evidence against physicalism
Hey Mr. Orson! Amidst my research about Near Death Experiences, I ended up finding out about your blog and your books. On the back cover of “NDE: Near Death Experience and AWARE studies: Proof Of The Soul and God?” (that I have yet to buy and fully read), you claim that only 10-20% of souls survive corporeal death and, in the sample available on Amazon, implied that the older you are, the less likely you are from surviving corporeal death and stick to your body.
Do you still stand by those claims and is there any other recent evidence leaning towards them?
Apologies for the oddly formal wording, this is my very first time writing such a question on something I consider something as important and reassuring as NDEs to someone that seem much more dedicated that I ever was and I’m… kinda nervous about it, ngl-
Hi, and welcome to discussion.
Firstly I want to point out that the actual wording is this “evidence that suggests that only 10-20% survive death”…it’s slightly different from claiming that it is definitely the case…the evidence may also point to other reasons which I also discuss…it is therefore best described as a working hypothesis, one among a number of possibilities that I explore in the book, about why only 10-20% of people who have a CA have NDEs. To date I am the only one who has offered this hypothesis explaining the clinical observation. Make of that what you will!
In answer to the second part of your comment, yes I still stand by that statement. The evidence has not changed, and here is the evidence:
1. As stated above, in retrospective and prospective clinical studies conducted by researchers approximately 10-20% of subjects who had a CA and were revived reported having NDEs. This is very consistent across numerous studies. A bit of EEG data during CA says nothing to change this and that is the only new data to date.
2. Children who have CA’s and survive are much more likely to recall an NDE – approximately 90%.
3. From looking at various studies the rate of change of recall declines in a linear fashion with age suggesting a direct relationship.
4. While memory does decline with age, unless someone has dementia, people do not lose 70-80% of their memory function, and in fact most people’s ability to recall key aspects of an event, or the fact an important event occurred, remain fully intact…they just lose the ability to recall details. (I go into this in detail in my book, providing references from clinical research – the difference is like this – a family attends a wedding…the children remember nearly everything about it, Granny remembers going, that the bride was beautiful, but can’t remember the colour of the bridesmaids’ dresses.) This suggests that there is a different explanation to age related memory loss for this large decline in NDE recall. It isn’t drugs, since the same drugs are used in all ages. Something else is going on and to date no one else has come up with an alternative explanation consistent with the evidence to the one I provide.
There are a couple of different possibilities that are consistent with the evidence:
Firstly, I specifically refer to age-related memory loss since I propose that it is also possible that all people have NDEs but most forget because the experience is so traumatic they experience something called dissociative amnesia. I have no evidence to support this, although hypnosis might uncover that.
Secondly, it is also possible, as Z suggested on here (I think it was Z), that people don’t need NDEs as they get older, as their eternal destiny has already been determined, and NDEs are an experience people some people need to get them over the line. I am not convinced about this, but it is possible.
The third explanation I provide for the observation is that the soul has lost the ability to live eternally.
Given all of this, combined with my faith-based subjective interpretation of the data (the path to life is narrow and few make it, whereas the path to destruction is wide and most travel down it – Matt 7:13-14), I propose that most people either lose the ability to live eternally or are destined to a traumatic destruction of their soul post this life. I propose that the longer people live in this material world, the more they are exposed to the toxicity (“temptations”) of material life, and the more they have the chance to behave in ways that deny their souls entry into God’s eternal kingdom. That is consistent with the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, teachings that I hold to be true. Of course, I must emphasise, this aspect to my interpretation is entirely subjective, but the evidence supports this as being a possible explanation.
I hope that answers your question.
Hello Orson,
>>>I propose that most people either lose the ability to live eternally or are destined to a traumatic destruction of their soul post this life<<>>traumatic destruction<<< of their soul??? Doesn't sound like the all fovging God, who loves us all, that I understand?
Rgds Paul
So the way I look at this is in the context of Jesus’ parable of the banquet. He invites people, sends out messengers etc, but people are too busy to reply or can’t be bothered, then when the day of the banquet arrives, and they suddenly decide they want to come, no dice. Sounds fair to me.
Ultimately people chose their eternal destiny while here. If they choose God, they get God and his Kingdom, but if they ignore him, or worse still, reject him, then they will either die or end up in a place where the goodness of God is absent, and where all those who hang out who have done the same are.
Ultimately where we end up is not a matter so much of judgement but consequence of actions. That is a rule of life here, why not for eternal life?
First off, thank you for taking the time for answering me. You helped me a lot explaining
I also took time to verify the wording and you’re correct, it is a suggestion first and foremost (which I’m kinda glad that it is tbh, that helps coping with anxiety)
I’m quite surprised however with the way you interpretated it through the lens of Christianity (even though you admitted yourself that it was more of a possible explanation rather than “The Truth™”, which I find greatly appreciable).
It makes me wonder how you’d react to evidences from other life after death-related phenomenons, such as Terminal Lucidity (which I think tend to concern a lot of older people regardless of what they did during their life) or reports of NDErs of elements that could enter in contradiction with Christian writings
Also, as a last note (at least for this comment), I wanted to ask you if you ever checked out the r/NDE Subreddit? I thought you could use more perspectives from NDErs present on it and maybe even see with the moderators to share your blog!
I go into subjective interpretation of the implications of the subjective part of NDEs in my book “Did Jesus Die For Nothing”, but I will briefly summarise it here.
For a long time I had lived with the cognitive dissonance of on one hand understanding NDEs to be real, and all that implied including the general overview observation that most people who have them seem to go to heaven irrespective of their faith, and on the other having complete belief that the accounts of Jesus in the gospels were entirely true. The two were irreconcilable since Jesus teaches very clearly that most people will not make it to heaven, instead choosing the things of the world. Then I had an “Aha!” moment inspired by my wife who pointed out firstly that if people cross the line of no return, one of the core elements of NDEs, they cannot come back so we do not know what lies beyond that line. We also discussed the principle of free choice, which God will not violate. This caused me to look at everything again.
What I observed with my fresh eyes is that while there are common themes, no two NDEs are the same, and many NDEs contradict other NDEs, especially on this subject of who makes it to heaven. Some Christians have come back and said only Christians make it and they have seen others end up in Hell. Some Christians have ended up in Hell. Some atheists have ended up in Hell and then heaven and some have come back and said there is no Hell and that we all go to heaven. Moreover the nature of people’s experience and what they see varies to significant extents. Some say there is a God, others say there isn’t. Some experience themselves having new bodies, others describe themselves as being blobs of light linked with other blobs…and on and on.
This observation made me realise that something odd is going on. All these people experienced these things as though they were more real than reality, and I believe them. I also believe that they were authentic experiences that occurred while their consciousness was separated from their earthly bodies…I don’t think they were made up, or even a product of their own consciousness, so what could they be?
I concluded (with no factual evidence) that these experiences happened to them at the behest of beings on the other side, and that there is a deliberate desire on the part of these beings to create this inconsistency. Whether these beings are heavenly or not, I have no idea, but ultimately the result is that it is not possible to draw an absolute conclusion on the subjects of whether everyone goes to heaven or not and if not who gets in…the messages are too muddled and contradictory, and deliberately so. Why? Free choice.
When NDEs are proven real, as I am certain they will be, there will be huge interest and everyone will be forced to understand that the soul has the capacity to live beyond the end of life. If all NDEs said the same thing, for example that to get into heaven you have to follow Jesus, then free choice would be removed. But they aren’t the same so we can form our own interpretation on the contradictory evidence, just as we can about the evidence available to us in this life.
Then we come to the boundary…the least discussed element of NDEs because no one in this dimension has ever crossed it…I believe that the full truth lies beyond the boundary and knowing that truth would destroy free choice in this dimension.
So going back to your surprise that I react to evidence from NDEs through the lens of my Christian faith and perhaps dismiss evidence that contradicts that faith, I hope you now understand why I knowingly do this. Such is the plethora of evidence available that you can use NDEs to justify almost every faith system or none. There are one or two exceptions because it is clear that there are consistent overarching themes that every NDEer returns with…specifically that we are meant to love others, be compassionate, not place too much value on material things, seek knowledge etc, but these can be found in many belief systems.
Ultimately NDEs have shifted the evidence against physicalism, but they have not given us an absolute answer on which, if any, religion or belief system is absolutely right, and I believe that our main purpose in life is to do that for ourselves. I also believe that having come to the subjective conclusion that Jesus was who the gospels say he was, based on the evidence I have been exposed to (including selective NDE evidence), it is my responsibility to proclaim that position in an appropriate manner (hence the new thread where we openly talk about this). I believe that NDEs support my position if I am selective about those NDEs, just as others can find NDEs that support their position, but the evidence from these NDEs may be mutually exclusive meaning we do not know for sure which one is right…that requires faith.
Hope that answers your question.
PS: Forgot to finish the top of my message. This is not ideal, but I’ll write the rest here
“First off, thank you for taking the time for answering me. You helped me a lot explaining your point of view and why you’re taking position on the matter this way.”
I think NDES are basically linked to memory of sorts. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE and ANYONE can have them. But the think is similar to a dream not everyone can recall them. That’s where that 10-20 comes in. The rest do have them. But they do not recall them. There are likely several factors to this mostly related to memory and the ability to recall things.
That would make sense were it not for the huge difference between kids and older adults.
Not everyone can recall everything to the exact detail. You can’t remember every dream. I think this is the exact same situation.
It is a completely different situation. Any memory is not being formed in the brain at all, but somewhere else. That is why physiological reasons are probably completely irrelevant.
How does one be compassionate?
Being compassionate is treating others how you would want to be treated…with patience and with love. It doesn’t mean being nice, as sometimes people need discipline, but it is acting in the best interests of others and with gentleness where possible.
It sounds good to me.
Hey Orson! Concerning children recall of NDEs, at what age cutoff do the stats become similar to adults?
They don’t, it is a linear decline. I’m in Oz on a trip at the moment so don’t have the exact data in front of me, but in my book I plot age vs NDE recall from all the major studies, and while most of the studies are in the age group 60+ you have Melvyn Morse’s data where in kids it was >90% recall, and some from a study where the mean age was under 60 and recall was >20%. Age related memory loss would not account for this, I also cite studies that look at this specific issue, and also the issue of dream recall with age, and neither explain the difference.
I admit that while that is what the data says, the quality of the data is not great. For instance, how did Melvyn Morse compile his data? I don’t know. You would need prospective data in which there were numerous cases of ROSC after CA across all the ages…you would need at least dozens in the under 10s before you might reach statical significance.
Ultimately my hypothesis is based on an observed trend that is derived from data that has not been tested statistically and from studies that were not designed to look at this issue, so it is entirely legitimate to challenge the quality of the evidence and therefore the foundations of my hypothesis. Nonetheless, there is nothing of better quality to say otherwise.
I read your book Orson, Ive been studying NDES for 30 years now. Ive even sp9ke to Dr. Melvin Morse on the phone. I disagree with your age cutoff on NDES. It might be that older people don’t remember their NDES. Given the drugs like versaid that block people memories. Or perhaps some people aren’t meant to remember their experience. Vinny Todd Tollman, who had a profound NDE,I posted it in the other thread, said if people remembered their NDES, they wouldn’t want to come back here. Just a thought.
I know most people disagree with one of the hypotheses I propose, but the fact is that the evidence supports that hypothesis being possible. The evidence does not support physiological reasons related to memory loss being responsible whether that be age or drugs…the differences between young and old are too great. The other reasons you give, such as people not being “meant” to remember their NDEs or as Z said, not having them because they would have no purpose, are possible explanations. Which one you choose to believe is down to subjective preference, but you cannot discount mine, or those latter two, based on evidence.
Agreed Xylo.
I haven’t considered the data on cardiac arrest survivors concerning NDE recall rates by age. So can’t say very much… (ha I said a lot after all)
I did a lot of research into potential reasons for anomalous recall in children/adolescents – when I was trying to understand my own childhood veridical OBE.
We get lot’s of poltergeist cases centered around adolescents. Sony’s ESPER Telepathy study was most successful with child receivers. Anomalous past-life experiences begin in childhood, and fade away in older adolescence. I also had my veridical OBE around 11-12 y/o.
My research homed in on Jay Giedd’s work on childhood brain development, which is very interesting, particularly his longitudinal studies. He shows substantial non-linear grey matter changes in brain development peaking at around age 12 for the frontal and parietal lobes, 16 for the temporal lobe, and grey matter continuing to increase in the occipital lobe through to age 20.
Geidd decided to put a lot of work into doing a longitudinal study, and he found very important non-linear changes in grey matter. Something that simply did not show up in all previous cross sectional studies.
It seems that adolescents go through waves of overproduction of brain network structures (dendrites etc.), quickly followed by elimination of network structures that get little to no use – a bit like a sculptor carving away at a new block of stone.
I speculated that during those bursts of overproduction, the mass of brand new network structures provide the possibilities to address a much larger range of structural patterns, and therefore increased possibilities of random interaction with other matching patterns (other people).
To imagine this, think of a childrens join-the-dots picture, where there are only sufficient number of correctly spaced dots to show the shape of a say… a dog. Then think of a join the dots picture with so many dots covering the the page, that you can draw any number of different objects… this would be more like the overproduction phase.
These bursts of overproduction I speculated might be responsible for a range of different phenomena experienced by both the adolescent, and sometimes by those around the adolescent.
But in any case, the key point for me is that babies have more neural connections than an adult, and dramatically more than the elderly. Networks and connections get pruned.
One study I particularly like, which I think beautifully demonstrates the difference between knowledge vs wisdom, which I think is due to the elimination of the brains neural network connections over ones lifetime:
In this study, the researchers showed a mixture of colour, and black & white photo’s to people in their 20’s, and people in their 60’s IIRC. Afterwards both age groups were asked to recall randomly whether particular photos were in black & white, or colour. The 20’s group recalled if a photo was black & white far more accurately, where as the 60’s group recalled virtually all the black & white photo’s as if they had been shown to them in colour.
Anyway…
Personally, I don’t think the otherworldly NDE tells us anything for, or against, the idea of an afterlife. Instead, I think the otherworldly NDE and the veridical OBE give us big clues about the living, and Experience itself.
People who have a cardiac arrest with apparent veridical NDE OBE, seem to recall the OBE from around the time period of their resuscitation. (i.e. they recall seeing medics resuscitating them).
Outside of hospital, they don’t recall the period between cardiac arrest starting, and the OBE beginning.
If the rarer veridical NDE OBE does occur, the otherworldly NDE component comes later – after the OBE (if it comes at all).
This suggests the NDE originates from a physiological time period, further into a successful recovery – I assume successful, because the person has survived to tell us about their NDE OBE.
But there is also little doubt in my mind that some apparently veridical OBE’s suggest real anomalous access to information.
And as you know, I suspect this information may be coming from third parties.