AwareofAware

Evolving news on the science, writing and thinking about Near Death Experiences (NDEs)

Dreams vs Reality

This was presented today in a Neurology conference in Norway. I would love to be able to get hold of the full presentation or even an abstract – I couldn’t find it in the EAN programme, but I’m sure Samwise the sleuth will be able to source it. Some of the “highlights” from the linked article summarizing the “study” are discussed below:

Norway Neurology Conference NDE study

Some of the key quotes:

Mystical near-death experiences where people report a range of spiritual and physical symptoms, including out-of-body sensations, seeing or hearing hallucinations, racing thoughts and time distortion, affect around 10 per cent of people, according to a new study that analysed participants from 35 countries

They say this was the same in those whose situation were non life threatening as those with a life-threatening NDE. They also stated that there was a higher incidence of unpleasant experiences than normally associated with these studies (73% of those claiming to have an NDE said it was unpleasant), although this was not the case in those that had a higher Greyson scale score (>7). Since anything below 7 is not normally considered an NDE then it is likely that this observation is irrelevant since those with a Greyson score >7 reported a much higher incidence of pleasant experiences (53% pleasant vs 14% unpleasant).  This says something about the way conclusions are presented in this study because it would actually be a more accurate key conclusion to say that people who experience genuine NDEs are more likely to have a pleasant experience than those that don’t, rather than making it an after thought.

The central conclusion of the study was food for a skeptical neurology audience.

REM sleep intrusion on wakefulness was found to be more common in people with scores of 7 or above on the Greyson NDE Scale (47 per cent) than in people with scores of 6 or below (26 per cent), or in those below the threshold with no such experiences (14 per cent).

Lead researcher Dr Daniel Kondziella, a neurologist at the University of Copenhagen, said, “Our central finding is that we confirmed the association of near-death experiences with REM sleep intrusion. Although association is not causality, identifying the physiological mechanisms behind REM sleep intrusion into wakefulness might advance our understanding of near-death experiences.”

The most important phrase in that quote is “association is not causality”. The relationship  or association may be due to different factors, something that would be good to discuss further in the comments section. I will throw an example thought in there: The causes of REM sleep intrusion may be due to the way that the conscious interacts with the physical mind, and the ability to experience or remember NDEs may be due to the same underlying physio-chemical reasons. Now while the conscious clearly experiences dreams and they can intrude into that waking stage, it does not necessarily follow that NDEs and dreams are the same or even a similar thing…namely the product of brain activity. They both involve the conscious but are significantly different in terms of context, content and quality; the types of experience (REM vs NDE) are not necessarily both a result of brain function, but the ability to experience them or remember them may be. I probably could have explained that better, but I hope you get the gist of it.

The team recruited 1,034 lay people from 35 countries via a crowdsourcing platform online (to eliminate selection bias) and asked them if they’d ever had an NDE. If they answered ‘yes’, they were asked for more details, using a detailed questionnaire assessment tool called the Greyson Near-Death Experience Scale, which asks about 16 specific symptoms.

I need to see the exact way that this was done before I agree that this methodology somehow removes selection bias. If anything my cynical side suspects that this method is going to attract a substantial amount of less than authentic reports.

Anyway, it is hitting the headlines in various news outlets and will no doubt morph into ammo for skeptics to claim that NDEs are just another form of dreaming. However, the (dodgy) data, for the reasons stated above, does not in any way “prove” that NDEs are just another form of dreaming.

 

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110 thoughts on “Dreams vs Reality

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  1. Anton Efimov on said:

    As I see, this study at the moment pretty much does not give any useful information.
    First of all, as we know, according to existing evidence, NDEs can happen with a flat EEG. While in the study they consider the intrusion of wakefulness into REM sleep as an NDE, while describing REM sleep as the part of sleep when your brain is VERY active. A very active brain, such as it is during REM sleep, would be noticed at the EEG.
    Secondly, here we are working with people’s opinions. One person experiencing an “NDE” during REM sleep can describe leaving his body, an altered state of time and etc. however all of this can be completely different during true NDEs. I would compare this with a feeling of falling in sleep (many people experience it) and actual falling in real life. Both of these occurrences we would describe as “falling”, but there’s not much in common between the 2.
    And finally.. yet again no explanation for veridical perceptions.

    In my opinion, this is a rather useless study and kind of a waste time. Even the DMT theory sounds more plausible.

    Liked by 1 person

    • I agree Anton, it is not the best study, but the fact it was presented at a major Neurology conference means it will carry weight in the media and helps fuel skepticism. That may have been its only purpose.

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  2. Ben, I have a question. Are most research articles like this in academia? The methodology used seems common, get a bunch of data points, calculate the correlation without any idea of possible underlying mechanisms, then proclaim “our central finding is that…” I thought science is supposed to be “rigorous”? Hand this to a mathematician and watch him yell at you. What is this, seriously?

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    • Chad, I work in pharma and this is absolute garbage in terms of protecting the integrity of the results. Parnia’s study is much more robust in that respect, but I still fear that there will gaps in terms of blinding interviewers to the images a subject may have been exposed to. That is key to the integrity of the results…hopefully Dr Parnia or one of his researchers comes here every now and then and has taken note, because lord knows I have blathered on about it enough. I am going to look more into this crowd sourcing technique, I am highly suspicious though.

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    • Brilliant, thanks Z. So why is it only being presented now? Usually it is the other way around…present first, paper next. Very odd. The paper is not in a an official journal and is not peer reviewed, probably because the methods are not up to scratch. I will comment more on this later, but interestingly I have just accepted a job involving research into a drug that helps patients with Narcolepsy…I will be very focused on the neurology of sleep so may have mor to say on this months to come.

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  3. David on said:

    I can only say you guys have said everything I was thinking. Orson US Pharma is really advertising on narcolepsy. Based on their ads I should ask about it. In fact I fall off because the cats pester me all night.
    Merck is involved in cultured meat now . Scott Gotleib one of Trumps only good appointments just joined Pfizer. He was really interested.
    Dead animal meat has a profit margin of 10 % wheras Pharma is a stunning 60. If the could get that margin for meat you can see why they are interested. Sorry to diverge but if this is all they got……..

    We won on Aware 1 and Pam.This is nothing more than a push poll.

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    • Paul Battista on said:

      Kevin Nelson at the university of Kentucky says NDES are rem Intrusion. Dr. Jeff Long disputes this as do I. In cardiac arrest there’s no brain waves.

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  4. Shouldn’t REM sleep show up on the EEG? Sam Parnia, in his last talk, found mostly flat EEGs with only some seizure like activity. It sounds a bit strange that REM sleep is causing the NDE.

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  5. Ruud Bleiji on said:

    A new study with a old conclusion. The flaws in a prevoius study where showed in the journal of near death study.
    https://iands.org/images/stories/pdf_downloads/longholdenremintrusion.pdf

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  6. Elizabeth Kubler Ross:

    Psychiatrist, she is considered the founder of psychotanatology, and one of the best known exponents of death studies. After studying in Switzerland, she moved to the USA in 1958 where she worked for many years in a New York hospital. From her experiences with terminally ill patients she drew the book Death and Dying published in 1969, which made her a real authority on the subject. His definition of the five stages of reaction to the deadly prognosis is famous: denial (denial and isolation), anger (anger), negotiation (bargaining), depression (depression), acceptance (acceptance). Key to his work is the search for the correct way to deal with mental suffering, as well as physical suffering. For his work he was awarded 18 (eighteen) degrees.

    Analyzing his studies he stated:

    “In all the years during which we have collected this type of data, no one has ever happened to us who, in the imminence of death, appointed someone who was not already dead, even if only for a few minutes”.

    “We have many cases like this, in which dying people, who did not know of the death of a relative, were welcomed and greeted by him”.

    This scientific evidence and more typical examples that confirm it can be found in the book “Death and life after death” by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, from which I have extrapolated the points that interested me to bring to your attention … and that you will find here of following.

    Greetings

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  7. Chad on said:

    I have rem intrustions quiet often. I can say they are NOT anything similar to NDEs. The hallmark feature is you see objects in your house that are obviously not there, and everything is very blurry.

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  8. Denton on said:

    As I am drifting off to sleep I often see things that aren’t there (I hope), followed by a realisation that I’m not breathing. It’s not sleep apnea, there’s no blockage. The Doctor says it’s because I’m thinking too much as I’m drifting off to sleep, it’s horrible. Most of the time all I see are figures or scary faces, perhaps lights or patterns etc. Is it possible to be conscious as you’re going into REM sleep? Forgive me if this is a poor question, it’s not my field.

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  9. Paul on said:

    This article is in one of the UK papers. It seems to suggest a link between narcolepsy and NDE’s. Just for the pot 😉

    Best,
    Paul

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-7192151/One-10-people-overcome-near-death-experience-scientists-discover.html

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    • seems…

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    • Chad on said:

      I’ve been making way too many replies, sorry for spamming your blog Ben. It seems every abnormal neurological condition is now being used to explain NDEs. Syncope was probably the closest skeptic argument, but they ditched that and are now going so far as to use narcolepsy. Fyi I have narcolepsy, sleep paralysis, and rem intrusion. I remember tim saying “every psychologist is trying to debunk NDEs”. This is the new fashion? Bottom barrel researchers who can’t come up with a non trivial result in their field, trying to jump ship and make a name debunking NDEs?

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  10. eramart on said:

    This article mentions some commentary by Sam Parnia:
    https://www.livescience.com/65838-near-death-experiences-rem-sleep.html

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  11. Ju Err on said:

    Hi all, I spoke to Dr Jeff Long here is what he told me. I usually try to talk to experts in the field for more accurate information. “Thanks for sharing this! Attached is another older article that tried to correlate REM intrusion with NDE. The current study makes many of the same methodology errors. In addition, I suspect many (if not most) of what the current study calls an NDE would not meet my research definition of an NDE that requires the experience to happen at the same time as an imminent life-threatening event with physical compromise so sever that there is unconsciousness. The prevalence of a history of NDE is much less than the one in ten quoted in the article which further shows they apparently have a lot of non-NDEs that they are calling NDEs.”
    https://dl-mail.ymail.com/ws/download/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-3QcMD9s2ZNSzEQisOBLHEa6hpQw82AXJaTB_tvDNEg9vdxEH9yr4FT-3EwbXbgDQ__-RD2C7hpyDxct-mh9X3A/messages/@.id==AJyeW-cQ4qq-XRieEgHckJjtA6M/content/parts/@.id==2/raw?appid=YMailNoble&ymreqid=32497702-3cf2-0a70-1c2c-ef0001013a00&token=tqS2G4WmMsk6ZlrfklKP0EAehH7iGMNSWCbiq446GWTx5Mm07VB1VAz5rEccM94xY-JDVZ8uBFykm7tJsjIMK4peYxjIEapGTOeivvliTCft6EA0b1Lbxw8GQRp6MjUQ

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  12. It seems the materialists are running out of information to counter the claims of what’s being presented and scrapping the bottom of the Barrel Chad. What’s unfortunate though is we people who know the truth are still in the minority. People will believe these crazed deniers. But look at it this way. At least I’m woke.

    Liked by 1 person

  13. Hello, I follow your blog for some time now. My English is not so good. Sorry for that. I wanted to know if Sam Parnia has posted the Resuscitation Reserach Program meanwhilw including information about aware II, which he wanted to launch in June according to his twitter account. I can’t find this anywhere. Thanks alot and keep up the good work!

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  14. Hey Cobra. He hasn’t posted anything yet. Someone will let us all know when he does. Trust me.

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  15. This blog keeps us up to date on the most advanced afterlife research studies. When something big happens it will be posted here Cobra.

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  16. David on said:

    And other consciousness topics. Todays Guardian has a story about plant consciousness. ….This is the place.

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  17. Denton on said:

    An interesting point was made by Penny Satori, a B
    medical researcher into near death experiences. She placed pink cards above the beds of potential NDE candidates with random symbols, and out of all of NDE claims, only one person was in a position to have seen the pink card during their NDE (According to where the patient claimed they were situated during the out of body experience). Although this person unfortunately did not see the card, he said that ‘If he had known to specifically look for it’ he would have done so, and told Penny Satori of it, however he was obviously focusing on his own body at the time and not looking for a pink card.

    Has Parnia considered telling all of the candidates to look at the Tablets (or new method?) as they sign their agreements towards the study? Or are there ethical issues that prevent this?

    Penny Satori claims she had a hit in the form of a male recalling actual events whilst being unconscious (He allegedly did not respond to pain), these events were quite detailed such the acts of other nurses in the room and are verifiable from other members in the room. Definitely worth looking into her research if you haven’t.

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    • So in Parnia’s study the tablet is almost above the body….it would be odd not to notice it.

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    • Kamo on said:

      I think it’s funny how some people expect the experiencers to look for the cards. The experiencer was focused on the body, nurses and doctors working on and trying to revive it, and sometimes a light or tunnel, possible loved ones, etc. The last thing on his/her mind is a freakin card.

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  18. It would make sense if a cactus is conscious as it is alive. Plants are living creatures. Just designed differently.

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  19. David on said:

    https://news.yahoo.com/woman-died-27-minutes-writes-161046083.html?.tsrc=daily_mail&uh_test=1_02

    Sorry I could not help myself from posting .The story has to attack the woman’s statement at the end.
    If it ticks you off delete it.

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    • Oh it ticks me off, but I won’t delete it.

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      • Kamo on said:

        I do wonder if NDErs actually read the articles “debunking” them, or if a ‘skeptic’ materialist tells him/her up front.

        NDEr- “I just had a great experience while I was dead or near death, and now I no longer fear death, I appreciate life more, and that we’ll all be together in the end no matter what happens. The afterlife is real. I’m so happy!”

        Materialist- “The experience you’ve had was just a result of a sick brain. You didn’t go into an afterlife, you were just going through delusions, hallucinations, and your biology created those illusions because you believed in them, and that you wanted that to happen. Evolutionary mechanism. Or maybe you just made the whole thing up. This is the only life we get. There is no afterlife. Only eternal oblivion.”

        I bet the NDEr would be severely depressed.

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      • Ju Err on said:

        @Kamo It does not bother DR.Mary Neal that much or Kimberly Sharp that much they also addressed skeptics directly.

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  20. Lukas on said:

    We have stories like that and then we have stories like this:

    “I have no memory of anything,” Yahle told WHIO. “I went to bed … woke up five days later in the hospital.”

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/anthony-yahle-comes-back-to-life-declared-dead_n_3796011?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAAKHc-QoXDzd0xuBKarGO8NkmF_V4E12ykROT2D1fd3S-zgTBhP5ynHNGsAKhYXyzn3GLnafxrd4wVNGy94sRcgp0DUKhjBKJau12Dy9-lvMPQubAIGiwZgrV9IJKPjrZnGYrnNsaGSrFvPchDh-peJ3J92hzvwhuwan9LH6zUbE

    According to the story. This person was 45 minutes clinically dead and has no recollection of a Near Death Experience so I will wait personally for study results.

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    • Ju Err on said:

      Lucas have you not read what Sam Parnia and other NDE researchers have said about this?

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    • @Lukas

      It doesn’t matter that some people (the majority) DON’T report or remember an experience from their period of “death”.

      What matters is that SOME people do… and it should be impossible. And because some people DO report experiencing consciousness when their brains were not functioning, then surely EVERYONE will ultimately experience it, because human beings are physiologically and metaphysically identical, are they not ?

      Regarding the man above who said he experienced nothing, we can’t know why… we can only speculate. What is known is that occasionally many weeks/months even years after, some people who did not initially report an NDE, do remember one. Pim Van Lommel encountered a couple of these in his longitudinal study.

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      • I’m not sure I agree with your statement that everyone should ultimately experience it. That is not evidence based, but wishful thinking.

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  21. Lukas on said:

    You mean that everyone has a NDE who is close to death but they forget it thanks to drugs? That it is like dreaming?

    I do not buy this explanation personally and for me its nonsense because if yes then that means NDEs are physical and not spiritual because if drugs can influence your NDE thus your brain has to work in that situation because I doubt a soul/spirit which is metaphysical would be influenced by earthly substances.

    However if there is a new hypothesis to this question please share. I heard this one as the last one to explain even by Dr. Parnia himself or Dr. Melvin Morse.

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    • Fact is we have nearly no understanding of why some people get NDEs and others do not. We can only speculate about it.

      What we know is that during AWARE I Dr. Parnia found out that around 40% of people reported some form, albeit small and confused, of awareness during their time of CA. This goes against most of our medical knowledge. Now were those individuals all having some form of NDE but can’t recollect it due to the after effects of CA+drugs? Maybe, we don’t know.

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    • @Raf

      Precisely !

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    • Ju Err on said:

      Lukas, Sam Parnia is saying he thinks most if not all are having these types of experiences they just forget they have them. He says if they come to the patient earlier he notices most do remember something but end up forgetting. He stated this multiple times in interviews.

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      • Lukas on said:

        Thanks for the reply. However this also does not give a satisfactory explanation and even contradicts what scientists from IANDS are saying. The problem is that those who had a NDE claim they will never forget it what they saw and they witnessed. They even according to IANDS claim that these experiences are hyper real more real then anything they experience:

        Near-death experiencers (NDErs) have reported two types of experiences. Most NDErs have reported pleasurable NDEs. These experiences involve mostly feelings of love, joy, peace, and/or bliss. A small number of NDErs have reported distressing NDEs. These experiences involve mostly feelings of terror, horror, anger, isolation, and/or guilt. Both types of NDErs usually report that the experience was hyper-real—even more real than earthly life.

        https://iands.org/ndes/about-ndes.html

        Also there are many NDE stories that were collected months or years after the event and the people remember them. So again this is no explanation to the problem. I am however not saying it does negate NDEs or that it negates what those 10 percent people are saying and what happened to them. I am just saying there is no rational explanation yet to the question why only 10 percent are having a NDE.

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      • Lukas it really is a very interesting question. I am working on a rewrite of a novel that explores this theme.

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  22. Will on said:

    I usually don’t post much, but wanted to add a few things here. I’ve always found it bothersome that only about 10 percent of people report NDEs. I wish someone would offer a satisfactory rationale, but that doesn’t negate what happens to the 10 percent.
    Not long ago, I emailed Pim Von Lommel with this very question. Unlike Parnia, he doesn’t think it’s that people don’t remember; it’s that they aren’t dead long enough to experience an NDE. In fact, he said after-death communication proves that everyone who dies has the same experience. Perhaps he covers this in his book.
    As for the case mentioned above, it sounds doubtful that this man was actually dead for 45 minutes. See: https://www.nbcnews.com/healthmain/dead-mans-recovery-shows-why-prolonged-cpr-works-6C10980325

    Thanks

    Like

    • Lukas on said:

      He however was flatlined:

      “He was truly flatlined at the end of that code. He had no electrical motion, no respiration, and no heart beat, and no blood pressure,” says Jayne Testa, director of cardiovascular services at Kettering.

      From the link that Will provided. He had a typical description like a NDE.

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  23. David on said:

    Parnia thinks they did have an ADE but it was not remembered. Let me give you an example of a friend.
    He recalls driving out of a bread store and waking 3 weeks later.
    Yet he was conscious when he slid under the semi on the ice and was awake several times and spoke with Doctors Nurses and Visitors. He remembers NONE of it.This is pretty typical. So it really is nothing to worry about.

    The opposite occured with me . I had pneumonia. I was aware of everything but was told I was nonresponsive. Kitty has pneumonia now and is a littly loopy after treatment. ALL of us could fill out that stupid online survey because we could have died it was close but we didnt.

    Hope this clears things up. The remarkable thing is that we have any hits.

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  24. David on said:

    The UFO show is available in UK online I saw. The season conclusion was dramatic. Italy says on appeared and shot down a helicopter.
    The former lead investgator said they are real. But yet may not be physical in any sense we understand it. Military pilots have experienced them since at least WW 2 and only now is the Navy destigmatizing them.

    Remind you of another Phenomenon.

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  25. Chad on said:

    When I was a kid I was hit by car. My parents said I was fully consciousness the whole time in ambulance. But I remember being mostly unconscious and opening my eyes briefly in ambulance. Should I trust the paramedics+my parents or my own memory?

    10% NDEs also present a problem for skeptical explanations.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Ju Err on said:

      Sam Parnia is saying he thinks most if not all are having these types of experiences they just forget they have them. He says if they come to the patient earlier he notices most do remember something but end up forgetting. He stated this multiple times in interviews.

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      • What he saying is regarded as “hearsay” evidence. There is no quantitative measure supporting his supposition. The data is the data, and it is nearly always 10% or thereabouts. There are only “potential” explanations, but no one knows for sure. I am rewriting a novel that looks at this.

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  26. David on said:

    OMG OMG Orson and everyone check out New York Times magazine on the dead pig brains. I hope its nit behind paywall so I dont have to describe the nonsense. I hate to tell them Parnia is dojng the same thing on humans to revive them . Its not new and all they proved is you can get not dead cells to work but the article was FAKE NEWs as a whole.

    The cats are looking at me like I am crazy pacing around. Hey we are in good health what is driving you nuts today!,,,,,!,,,!,,,,,!,,,,,.

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    • Yes, they really do make a mountain out of a molehill. It’s not behind a paywall, and its very long, and just charts the history of the experiment. Keeping organs alive after death is not exactly ground breaking. The brain is just another organ, but since it supposedly the seat of the conscious, the implications are potentially disturbing. However, we know that the conscious itself has gone off elsewhere unless the brain is fully functional. Now if they were to get one of these brains to start firing up EEG measurements associated with consciousness then we would be in different territory.

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    • Kamo on said:

      Um, are you okay, David? Calm down.

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  27. Everyone has an experience but others recall it more clearly then others who may not remember it at all.

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    • RegenKing, there is no evidence to support that…except maybe the chap who died and came back twice and only recalled one NDE. I make myself a bit unpopular here by saying controversial things like “maybe not everyone has a soul”. That is another potential explanation (not that I believe that is the case, but it is plausible given the evidence). You have to go with the evidence not feelings, and there is no evidence to support the belief that everyone has NDEs.

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  28. Ju Err on said:

    NDEs are not the only thing that gives us evidence that humas have souls I attached a link bellow you can also email inspiringphilosophy for questions. What Parnia also says about the memories does seem plausible if not likely. He does say when they get to the patient EARLY they do remember something. We cannot dismiss that are “hearsay”. Also around the 25:08 mark Parnia talks about this very issue. Sam parni > https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTh6wNlYao. > inspiringphilosophy https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70

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  29. David on said:

    Or Annubis extinguishes some as shown in American Gods…..There is the now permantlly dead Kerry Packer . He claimed as I recall it felt like nothing . I believe he used that term which us interesting. Truly nothing wouldnt have a feel. Anyway google it . He seemed like a charming fellow…..not.

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  30. David on said:

    There is an admission in the Times story no eeg no consciousness. . It all just makes me think how non physical consciousness is. …..but it would be productive if this guy focused on muscle tissue so we could stop killing the pigs.
    Also makes me wondering what sort of research we are spending on. It shows a lot of brain effort has been a total waste. My focus would be understanding aging along with immune system alongside cancer.

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  31. I think memory is the only possible explanation. One can’t remember every single thing.

    Liked by 1 person

  32. Regardless I don’t think I’m souless. I am not evil. I am just a bit high strung that’s all. I do get aggressive though if things go wrong. I am otherwise very nice and am capable of doing nice acts. If I do something bad I do feel regret or remorse. If I “die” I will likely end up in the same state my grandparents are in. Wondering small invisible light spheres that linger around and observe the world in a new light.

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  33. David on said:

    Well there are sometimes invisible to visible spheres as confirmed by the US Navy. It probably is memory that is what Parmia thinks but really all we can confirm is that consciousness occured during no brain actvity in Aware 1.

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  34. I think it’s memories too. More research is probably needed in the subject. Regarding NDE memory. Why do some people remember them but others do not? Maybe Aware 2 will shed some light on this.

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    • Ju Err on said:

      A person has had situations where they do remember an NDE. Then the same person would have an another situation a second time and he didn’t remember anything that time. Gary Habermas told me he’s an expert on NDEs. Seems more like an memory thing.

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  35. Ju Err on said:

    Also around the 25:08 mark Parnia talks about this very issue. Sam parni https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gkTh6wNlYao

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    • Lukas on said:

      Again this does not answer the question if it does then NDEs would be physical. Dr. Sam Parnia himself is telling something in the lines that during the process of restarting the heart there is a massive inflation that affects your memory circuits in the brain. If this is true then NDEs are physical and not metaphysical and negates what other people who had NDEs are saying. It starts in 25:25 to 25:33 from the link Ju Err provided.

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      • Ju Err on said:

        Lukas If your talking about the mind and Brain correlation then thats a separate question I provided A Link below. We cannot be purely physical NDEs are one of many arguments. In verified NDEs people have recollections when their brain is flat People say “I was out of my body looking down on my physical body while I was conscious and I STILL HAD MEMORIES AND I was still myself ” thats very important that tells us we are not just bodies and is verified in that moment. There are around 300 verified OBE caes. I would recommend emailing Pin van lommel if you have questions about OBEs and his study he does answer questions via email. Also If you are referring to philosophy of mind. Inspiringphilosophy has a good series on the immaterial mind. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oBsI_ay8K70 also JPMoreland and Eric Hernandez are also great on the philosophy of mind Eric Hernandez will answer a lot of questions.

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      • Ju Err on said:

        Imagine an AM FM radio. The hardware of the radio is like the physical body. The signal is like the soul. If you damage the hardware, the song won’t sound right.

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  36. Yes someone else here bought up that there is a person who died twice. He remembered one time but didn’t remember the second one. I think memory makes the most sense rather then the people who lack morality and thus have an absence of soul. This is contradictory because even the most rotten people have souls. Twisted and evil souls but still souls. If a thing doesn’t have a soul it’s just a lifeless object. Rocks don’t have souls because they are inanimate objects. Soul or the more scientific term consciousness is the driving force behind what makes a living thing alive. So yeah I agree with you on that one Jr Err.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. David on said:

    I was under the impression he was simply pointing out that most people have no memories of many traumatic events. We really dont understand memory well either. But someone can claim that. That is why we focus on the awareness of an event under compkete brain shutdown.

    Like

    • Lukas on said:

      I am not talking about that NDEs are physical. I am talking that Dr. Sam Parnias explanation why some people do not have NDEs is contradicting and it would mean that NDEs are physical if he is right.

      Also again it does not answer the question still why some people have NDEs and some do not. So someone gets their brain circuits damaged and someone does not even when they have the same procedure with the same drugs? This makes no sense again.

      Like

      • Ju Err on said:

        I understand Lukas just remember philosophy of mind is very important and it plays a big part in what is going on here. Sam Parnia is very Bad at philosophy I recognized this first in his book. Even if Sam Parnia is correct that goes back to philosophy of mind. For me there are a few leading ideas on philosophy of mind substance dualism,Hylemorphic Dualism and Dual-aspect Idealism.

        Like

      • David on said:

        No one ever gets the Philosophy right and one very good Philosopher said I was a Dual aspect idealist but I would have to ask him again.

        Like

  38. Dsilka on said:

    Peter Fenwick has posted a new video on NDE’s. Perfect for anybody getting into the topic. He’s started his own channel and it’s really admirable.

    Link: https://youtu.be/6Byzhmi3Ja0

    Like

    • Chad on said:

      This is completely pointless. It’s not even possible to prove other people are conscious. I love how they assume consciousness has an evolutionary advantage and at the same time say it doesn’t do anything and free will is an illusion.

      And this phrase “evolutionary biologist Jon M. Mallatt and neuroscientist Todd E. Feinberg, who studied the evolution of consciousness in animals” is just hilarious. I love it when staunch materialists try to sound smug to the legions of atheist teens and young pop science fans tim referred to, who all think the hard problem is just a meme.

      Like

      • As David, said, you nail it Chad. As I have said, cough, a number of times, cough, my book on the origins of life really goes into the history of why modern scientists are so against any form of dualism, or external “interference”. I used to read NewScientist up until the mid noughties. I found it nuanced when it came to matters of faith and science. Then a new editor took over and took the constant position that Science explains everything and that anyone who believes otherwise is a knuckle dragging halfwit. I cancelled my subscription.

        Like

    • Ju Err on said:

      @David I know Two good Dual aspect Idealists First one is Inspiringphilosophy he also has a good channel. Also there is Keith Ward. Keith ward has a good book on dual aspect Idealism.

      Like

  39. David on said:

    Attack anything that doesnt fit. Love your response Chad.
    Guess who showed up in Jeffery Epsteins black book …..perhaps Steven Pinker……Also Harvard is keeping his money. He gave some to evolutionary biology. I was going to look it up and see if they produced anything.

    Like

  40. Plants are conscious because they are living beings.

    Like

  41. When tramautic events occur yes it is possible to not have memory of them David. You are correct. Sometimes people tend to forget them.

    Like

  42. werner Bartl on said:

    Often I think Aware 2 has been negative, and they have seen that there is brain function in deeper layers because you hear nothing from Dr sam Parnia

    Like

    • Chad on said:

      https://med.nyu.edu/medicine/pulmonary/research/current-investigations/critical-care-resuscitation-research-program/about-cardiac-arrest

      The phenomenon of awareness during cardiac arrest is not well understood from a biological standpoint. In some rare cases, patients may even move and show transient signs of being visibly conscious. However, these instances typically do not represent a true cardiac arrest. For example, some people may have a beating heart but are so ill that their pulse is weak and impalpable by hand. Clinicians will thus start CPR, which strengthens the heartbeat and enables enough blood flow to reach the brain and body while CPR is underway for people to show visible signs of movement.

      He knows about the case where the patient was conscious during cpr. He mentioned true cardiac arrest so presumably the veridical perception cases he encountered are true ones.

      Liked by 1 person

      • David on said:

        Yep all there its just brain cells dontvall die nor do other cells….you can stop murdering rats and playing with pig brains ypu 21st century Galvanis.

        Todays times had a story about racists ordering genetic tests finding out they are not white enogh and denying it. It mentioned a 1979 study of people on the death penalty . Each group found fault only in the other side of the issue of deterrence. It reminds me no matter what he finds in A2 it doent matter because A1 was definitive enough except for people who will never believe what he finds.

        I dont think either side has proved the death penalty and deterrence. Reminds me of the always inconclusive ESP studies. Something there but….
        Illinois dropped the death penalty because we kept sentencing the innocent. Made the deterrent issue moot.

        Like

    • Anton Efimov on said:

      How so? Sam Parnia originally said that he is not going to discuss the most important results until the study is finished. While in his recent interviews he continues to state the possibility of separate existence of soul and body as he has always done.
      I think that there is no reason to assume that Aware 2 is negative as of now

      Liked by 1 person

  43. werner Bartl on said:

    Thank you

    Like

  44. Kamo on said:

    “The central conclusion of the study was food for a skeptical neurology audience.”

    Of course it was. These explanations always are. Food for weeks.

    Like

  45. Eric on said:

    What would be the process for me to request adding a US site to AWARE II? I have a non-profit.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Kamo on said:

      Both links are interesting.

      Like

    • Well at least it’s someone who is actually a bit open about consciousness beyond the brain. I’ve been reading Susan Blackmore on PsychologyToday for too long. Yes, she STILL talks about how the astral realm is all a fantasy. Not surprised.

      Like

  46. Chad on said:

    Anyone who is on good terms with Sam, is it possible to ask him this question on my behalf (just copy paste). I emailed him multiple times before about the hidden ipad but no response, I dont think he likes me.

    “You said the human mind might continue after cardiac arrest. Yet most of the human mind can be demonstrated to be caused by brain activity, a person’s thoughts and feelings and behavioural dispositions can completely change with change in brain activity. Only the subjective conscious perception is the odd thing out. How do you think NDErs still report feeling like their original self? I would be much less troubled if NDErs say they sudden lost all sense of being a human and experienced a completely different existence, but only some NDErs experience this and most retain their human personality completely. Because that’s what brain seems to do, to give us a human experience not a universal consciousness experience.”

    Btw I’m not a fan of the filter theory. It seems to be consciousness observes brain activity, so the normal human personality is entirely caused by brain activity. Thus a NDEr should experience something completely unrelated to being a human as soon as the tunnel appear.

    Like

    • I wouldn’t take it personally. He is very busy and must get thousands of emails, most of which end up in his junk mail. I remember sending him an email once…he did reply, but about 2 ninths later. I was grateful that he did, but if he was just an ordinary doctor his in box would be overflowing, but he is not.

      Like

  47. David on said:

    Heck I was paniced when I didnt hear from my vet. Cat fine vet swamped. Same with Doctors. If they arent you woukdnt want them.
    Its mostly retired people like me or the President of the US who can pend all their time blogging and tweeting.

    Like

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