The onion of reality
I have made a few comments or mini-posts about reality before, but the more I think about it the more I believe it is like an onion, and purposefully so.
As I have said before, our experience of reality is an illusion. That is factually true.
As a reminder, the first layer is the perception of the physical world around us. It does not exist as we perceive it to exist, it is quite literally a trick of the light (and electrostatic repulsion). Anyone who has studied chemistry in school will be familiar with the structure of an atom. It has a nucleus that consists of protons and neutrons, surrounded by a ”cloud” of electrons. It is not really a cloud, but rather a number of electrons moving in orbits. In some atoms just a handful, in the heavier ones, dozens, moving around the nucleus in specific defined paths. The speed of “movement” creates the impression of a cloud, just like the cartoon legs of road runner.
Anyway, to avoid getting bogged down in science or detail, all these sub-atomic particles (electrons neutrons etc) are incredibly small, and yet when groups of atoms come together to form molecules, and then these molecules combine to form structures they take on the “appearance” and “sensation” of solidity, however, this appearance and sensation is illusory. The “appearance” is the result of light of specific wavelengths being absorbed by the electrons, and since they move incredibly fast they look solid, and the sensation is due to repulsion of charged particles. If you were to freeze the movement of all electrons, humans would become invisible because the space the subatomic particles take up is ludicrously small. In fact, if you were able to overcome the electrostatic repulsion and squish all the sub atomic particles (everything) that make all the humans on earth together, then the whole of humanity would occupy the space taken up by a solitary sugar cube!
That is why the world we see can be described as an illusion. But that is only the first layer of the onion.
The second layer is the illusion that those particles occupy a specific place in time – in other words that they actually occupy space at all. This is the illusion that quantum mechanics begins to expose. Now I do not understand quantum mechanics to any deep level, and will probably make a fool of myself here, but as part of my undergraduate studies I was forced to solve Schrödinger’s wave equation. This equation speaks to the dual nature of matter, and that electrons and photons etc can be both wave and particle. But there is more. The location of an electron and properties of an electron are not determined until the electron is observed. Now I am going way out of my lane here, but from my understanding this is the heart of Schrodinger’s cat problem, and the argument between Neils Bohr and Albert Einstein, in which Einstein was forced to admit in the end that the properties of matter are not determined until they are observed. Extending this into metaphysical terms, reality is conscious observation.
I see each of these layers of the onion as layers of consciousness in which we may be able to exist, and progress to. This is in line with many religious understandings, including the Christian one (in my father’s house there are many mansions…). Is this place I was invited to experience the centre, or is there another layer? This is where the Far Eastern religious traditions and the middle eastern ones, specifically Christianity diverge. The centre of the onion in Eastern traditions is the merging of all consciousness, whereas the Middle Eastern ones are the co-existing of individual consciousness in a created paradise with the ultimate creator consciousness.
This is the essence of the second layer of the onion and hints at the true nature of the fundamental problem. The world, the universe in which we live is not real as we understand it to be, and we don’t really fully understand what it is. (I believe a part of the illusion is creating a conundrum that is distracting for superbrains so they don’t find the real answer- if nothing of this is real, then neither is the maths that points to it not being real!). This leads many “superbrain” scientists to engage in speculation on the nature of our experience, inevitably leading to philosophical idealism…everything is just consciousness…and they may have a point. However, without a central reference, or an understanding of any source of this realm of consciousness, this thinking can be destabilising. These people, being supremely smart, turn their nose up at perfectly suitable explanations provided by some religions because they believe only thick people believe that superstitious nonsense (when I say thick, I mean people like me who only have 1 Ph.D.). They want to come up with something clever. A few are really really clever leading them to be humble and see that we already have adequate explanations that fit the observations.
Anyway, it is clear that science is on to something, even if the discoveries ultimately point to the futility of science. NDEs provide confirmation of the illusory nature of this layer of the onion. Virtually every experiencer says that once they leave this realm, they enter another realm which feels much more real. They come to recognise that the earth “realm” is not in fact reality but some sort of “learning” or “testing” environment. It must therefore be created for that purpose. A created illusion designed to fool us that this is the only reality unless we seek truth…it seems that this world is designed to find truth seekers, the kind of people who come to this blog, the kind like Neo in The Matrix who knows there is more to life than just the observable world.
Often these experiencers describe the realm they enter as having a translucent quality. This means that light can pass through things, although it is diffuse. In other words, the world they see there better reflects the true nature of “reality”. This advanced form of reality is also an illusion, although maybe in this realm it is not illusory as in a trick, but clearly so. The objects that people observe are obviously not solid, and therefore what are they? I believe that just like here they are the result of a creative imagination, only in that next place we are allowed to see that the objects we observe are really just images to enjoy or help us to understand or relate to. Does our consciousness create them, or are they created for us?
This NDE world is the third layer of the onion. Beyond that we can only speculate, but my own experience, which I describe in a small passage in my book linked below, may point to another layer, possibly the centre of the onion. In my experience I met God. It was a place, but I couldn’t see or feel anything physically I could only feel emotions (pure love) and be conscious. I existed in the most perfect form. I was an individual point of consciousness, surrounded by many other conscious beings, but focused entirely on one of those beings…God, a being of pure and infinite love.
NDEs do not answer these questions as people come back with differing and contradictory understandings of the answer to this. I believe they are meant to. We are not supposed to know the precise answer to that question here. Here we are meant to find key truths for ourselves. That is a part of the “process”…the purpose of that “process” may be to learn, or it may be to sort, again your belief about that will be determined by what belief system you adhere to, but they can’t all be right.
This was not written with the intention of it being an advert for my book, but rather than “preach” in this post, I refer you to my book on why I believe Jesus is right on this, and in fact the answer to all of this. I do not prove it, and as I explicitly state in my book, the evidence is such that you can choose to believe a number of different explanations for the “onion”, but I do point out that choosing the wrong explanation may have dire consequences.
If you are genuinely curious about why I made my choice the way I did, then get a copy of the book, the Kindle version of which I am giving away for 48 hours from midnight Saturday (PST).
Also, as always, please post your thoughts on this…it is quite a deep, almost esoteric, subject, it is after all the essence of the question around the meaning of life.
AwareofAware 
very well put
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As you probably know, cognitive scientist (and philosophical idealist) Donald Hoffman has also compared reality to an onion, and stated he doesn’t believe we will ever reach or know the inner layer. I’m at a place right now where I’m in deep grief for my beloved dog who just died, and I hope beyond hope I will see him some day. I’m also upset my poor dog suffered from his cancer, and I’m still bewildered by the purpose of natural suffering. I can’t imagine it served any useful purpose for my dog, nor for me. My dog taught me many important lessons, but his suffering did not. After he died, I went so far as to read an article by Bruce Greyson describing instances of NDE’s with pets! However, I realize we all may just be fooling ourselves in an effort to cope, as we humans are extremely good at that. As for Christianity and the afterlife, I realize your beliefs are very influenced by your own personal experience, which I have never had. So all I can do is rely on the experts who study these things, and Bart Ehrman is considered one of the top NT scholars in the world. According to his studies, the teachings of Jesus were apocalyptic, meaning the end of the world was imminent and would happen in the lifetime of the disciples. Also, he did not teach that there was a non-physical soul; rather God would raise people from the dead and they would inhabit their physical body. When that did not happen, the story changed of course; it had to, and it was also much influenced by the beliefs of the Greeks, who were the main converts at the time. Ehrman has written about this in his books and his blog, but you can’t access full articles without paying (all money verifiably goes to charity, as he still believes in the teachings of Jesus, if not the divinity). But the link below is all free and he discusses some of this. I have no idea what happens after death; I just know that right now, I want to be with my dog!
https://www.wunc.org/2020-03-31/heaven-and-hell-are-not-what-jesus-preached-religion-scholar-says
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Hi Shawn, I am very sorry to hear about your dog. Watching any being you love suffer unnecessarily is both heart breaking and perplexing. My mother was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer this week, just after I have moved to New Zealand. It is hard to make sense of these things, all I know is that in these times I draw closer to God and I find the comfort I need in him, if not the explanations I want. My experience has taught me to trust.
I hadn’t read Hoffman’s analogy of the onion, but it is hardly surprising that different people use this analogy as it makes sense. It is very hard being an original thinker on anything these days!
I know that there are different interpretations and understandings of what Jesus said, and in some of his sayings it appeared that he did expect the world to end while some of his disciples were still alive, but on others he says that no one knows the place and time. Anyway, it is a debate I do not wish to engage in, and I chose to “car park” some of these obvious contradictions as like you say, the evidence of my own experience points to the understanding I have. If you haven’t had that set of experiences, I can understand why you would choose not to believe what I do. Again, it is hard to make sense of why one person would have these experiences and another would not if God desires all to know him through the Christian route…I repeat, I trust him…that is what my life has taught me.
Hope you have a lovely Sunday.
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I’m so sorry to hear about your mother’s diagnosis. I sincerely hope that she will not suffer. I also hope that the comfort you take in God continues through the difficult times ahead. I recently attended a funeral of a young man who died at age 38, and interestingly, the minister didn’t speak of trust or faith, but simply of hope, which resonated with me. I have hope that I will see my dog some day, which probably sounds silly to many, but that dog was my baby! Anyway, the type of mind I have is always questioning and it’s difficult not to have answers to the biggest and most difficult questions. But don’t worry, I won’t try to debate you on the veracity or interpretation of Bible scripture, as that is not my area of expertise, despite my interest in the writings of scholar Bart Ehrman. Warm wishes to you and your mother, and I appreciate your thoughts.
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Thank you. I hope you will see your dog again. I feel like that about my pets who have died.
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This also seems to be reflected in broad tendencies to individualism (capitalism, democracy) in the West and collectivism (communism, authoritarianism) in the East. I think these tendencies are psycho-social manifestations of more general processes of differentiation and unification in a spatiotemporal world. Years ago I wrote an article about how the concept of the Holy Trinity can be interpreted in terms of these processes:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QK1uKXCr6dYt0c326XUjZmjEnIPkc3Zw/view
By the way, in quantum mechanics the emergence of definite properties of a particle, such as its position, is not necessarily caused by observation by a conscious observer. That is a historical misconception based on the fact that the definite properties emerge in the act of measurement, but what is measurement? It turns out that “measurement” is simply an interaction of the particle with a macroscopic (many-particle) object. Such a macroscopic object can be an actual measurement instrument of a physicist but it can also be a bunch of air molecules. That’s why quantum computers need to be shielded from the environment, to prevent disruptive factors such as air from collapsing quantum waves in the computer into particles.
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Thanks for that explanation Tomas, I was aware that my explanation was somewhat based on a misinterpretation, but at the same time it is hard to interpret something that so few actually understand and is in itself quite mind boggling.
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The ideas of Robert Lanza whos book you have obviously read, and are now putting forward as your own ideas are very interesting
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Never heard of him, let alone read his books. And don’t accuse of me plagiarism again it is extremely rude. I think about stuff, I write about that in this obscure blog. Many people think of similar things originally at the same time or at different times without knowing of the other “thinkers” thoughts. I wrote an entire novel thinking it was original, then saw a movie that was all but identical.
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Lol thinking these ideas are new and from Lanza is also quite funny IMO. Plato’s probably laughing hard right now. I suggest you read a bit more, plagiarist. In the same vein, I’m not diminishing Lanza’s work and am actually pretty happy to learn (because of your comment) that he continues writing about his theory since his 2017 book.
Everyone is only trying to put into words one deeper, yet intuitive reality, based on their experience and knowledge. As Iain Mcgilchrist would put it though, putting into words and analysing means denaturing (I know something about it, as a french speaker on this blog). We need to live it.
Your analogy with QM is a good one Ben as physicists sometimes strongly disagree on interpretation (consciousness cause collapse is still a thing btw, though fringe, but relational QM is not far off) or meanings of variables or even the wave function. Are these true “things” or not?
Ben, I really enjoy these kinds of topics, I hope comments like this won’t turn you off!
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Thank you so much Paul for your encouragement. In all truth I do sometimes just think of giving up posting at times, it can feel very thankless, particularly when someone insults me, and it is the opposite of financially rewarding! I am modestly successful in my busy professional life, so really do not need to do this for money or write books for money (although I still dream of the day my writing will be successful enough for me to make that the entire focus of my working day). However, despite this, comments like yours, and the discussions we have, and the fact I feel like some of the long time visitors here are now friends, means I will keep it going while people still keep coming.
Thanks also for your insights into where the field of QM stands. I do feel the understanding of the relationship between observation and things becoming “real” or fixed is not fully nailed down, but my knowledge of these things is quite limited. However, my point is that such things are irrelevant since if my (and anyone else who has thought this) interpretation of everything is correct, and we are living in an entirely created illusion, then even quantum mechanics is an illusion, a puzzle for super smart people to try to solve to stop them thinking about other stuff! This world is about testing us – trying to distract us from the truth to find those whose hearts and minds burn for the truth so much, nothing will distract them till they find it (and you all know what I believe to be the ultimate truth – the one he calls himself THE truth).
In my book, I make the point that I believe the only “reality” is our conscious experience (observations and sensations), responses (thoughts and actions) and memories (wherever they are stored). These become permanent and may have consequence for the eternal destiny of our consciousness.
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What an interesting blog post. I’ve been ‘off grid’ for while, due to certain events.
I’ll comment as the thread pogresses, and more input is added.
I’m sorry to hear about your Mother. My Mom died from bowel cancer some years ago. It’s no fun watching someone you love die from such an illness. Tell her now how much you love her, and how grateful you are for all she did for you. Do it now. I wish I could have 5 minutes with my Mother to express this to her right now.
Paul”¬
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I’m sorry to hear about your mother. Yes, I tell my mother every time we speak that I love her in case it is the last. However, I do believe that for her and for me, death here is not the end, and if NDEs are to be believed then we will reunited with our loved ones, and even our pets on the other side.
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Im familiar with Robert Lanza and his biocentrism theory
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Just as a reminder, since I had to deal with some unpleasantness this morning (New Zealand time). When it comes to insulting anyone who comes here, you get one warning, do it again, then out. Lively discussion, debate, very much encouraged, by groundless insults very very unwelcome.
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This. It’s over an hour long but worth putting the kettle on, and watching. Trust me.
Maybe herein will answer the question?
https://bigthinkmedia.substack.com/p/michio-kaku-wants-to-solve-einsteins?utm_source=podcast-email&publication_id=2863167&post_id=171412250&r=ioug3&utm_campaign=email-play-on-substack&utm_content=watch_now_gif&triedRedirect=true
Paul”¬
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The link takes you half way through the video. Go to the begining (chapter one). QComputers. There might lie the answer to the Onion problem. Not yet, but in time.
Paul”¬
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Hi Ben! How are you? I hope everything’s well.
I currently interpret Near-Death Experiences (NDEs) as genuine manifestations of out-of-body experiences. This view is based on studies such as those by Dr. Sam Parnia and the prospective analyses of Dr. Michael Sabom, who compared cardiac arrest patients with a control group of experienced cardiology patients. Together, these works, in my view, confirm the authenticity of the NDE phenomenon and demonstrate the physical impossibility of visual perception during such events — which reinforces the hypothesis of consciousness operating independently from the physical body.
Regarding the layers of reality, I believe that the extraphysical plane literally contains thousands of layers or dimensions, each vibrating at different frequencies. This understanding is inspired by the research of Dr. Waldo Vieira, a late Brazilian physician and dentist who dedicated decades to the study of out-of-body projections.
The expanded summaries of his discoveries are compiled in his treatise Projeciology (translation of the original Projeciologia), available on the Editares website. I consider this work to be of inestimable value, as it describes in detail the functions of the spirit — which, according to Dr. Vieira, manifests through three extraphysical bodies: the holochakra, the psychosoma, and the mentalsoma. Furthermore, the book deeply explores parapsychological phenomena, the extraphysical dimensions in which consciousness operates, and above all, the purpose of doing good both in the physical and extraphysical realms.
I highly recommend this work to anyone interested in the serious study of consciousness.
Wishing you and everyone an excellent start to the week!
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Good post, Lucas. Rgds Paul”¬
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Thank you Lucas. That work sounds very interesting.
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Good afternoon, Paul, Ben, and all the readers of the blog.
I realized I forgot to mention the main point: to share the article from the Editares website referring to the work previously mentioned.
It’s quite an extensive book (with over 1,200 pages), but I assure you that reading it in its entirety is truly worthwhile.
I understand that, for readers from different cultures or belief systems, some passages may seem unusual. This is because Dr. Waldo Vieira sought to be as technical and impartial as possible in his analyses, deliberately avoiding any religious or cultural influence.
I especially recommend paying attention to the section on spiritual phenomena, particularly the part dedicated to Near-Death Experiences (NDEs). It’s important to note that the observations presented reflect Dr. Vieira’s own conclusions. Although many of these ideas have not yet been confirmed by conventional science, they offer remarkably precise and thought-provoking hypotheses about the possible function of NDEs.
Wishing all the readers an excellent week ahead!
You can find the link to the book here:
https://editares.org/projectiology/
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The lockdowns of 2020, forced much scientific discourse online, and I got the chance, and had the time, to watch many lectures by Nima Arkhani-Hamed on the new ideas he and a few other theoretical physicists were working on – which suggest that Quantum Mechanics and Spacetime emerge together from a very simple, primitive, mathematical structure.
Buried in these marathon lectures, was an amazing and shocking slide, showing a graphic of what that mathematical structure would look like, if brought into our everyday world of 3+1 dimensions. That slide made me quite down-in-the-mouth for 6 months or so.
For me, Nima’s mathematical structure – unifying QM and Relativity – is the missing link that shows that the universe we describe, is inseparable from the organism that describes it.
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1364661325002347
His X (Twitter) is also very interesting. (If someone wants to take a look)
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Hello Ben, good afternoon from Brazil!
I’ve created a PDF of Chapter 3 from Scott Rogo’s Life After Death (1986). I originally found the text in Portuguese and then translated it back into English using an AI tool.
Chapter 3 offers a detailed analysis of Michael Sabom’s experiments, especially his retrospective studies comparing people who had near-death experiences (NDEs) with control groups who did not have NDEs. It’s fascinating to see how accurate many of the NDE accounts were in describing medical procedures and events.
I’ll be sharing the PDF on this website:
https://smallpdf.com/pt/file#s=00e8defc-e647-40c4-b712-1411e1b26992
Wishing all members of the blog a wonderful weekend, wherever you are in the world!
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There’s a good interview of Sabom on YouTube. I believe he divided his study into a prospective and retrospective group. His own patients were the prospective group and patients that were referred to him were in the retrospective group.
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Hello, Pablo. Good morning from Brazil (in my local time, it’s already 10 a.m.).
I see Dr. Michael Sabom’s study as a fundamental historical milestone in the debate on Near-Death Experiences (NDEs), especially because, even after more than 40 years, his findings have not been refuted but rather corroborated by subsequent research, such as that of Dr. Pim van Lommel and Dr. Sam Parnia. Both also documented cases of patients who exhibited consciousness during periods when no clinical signs of awareness were present, as seen in the remarkable cases of the “Dentures Patient” and the “57-year-old Patient” from the AWARE I study.
A question I always find extremely pertinent is: how can individuals with no clinical signs of consciousness — and, in most cases, with their eyes closed — accurately describe visual details of the cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) procedure?
To me, the body of evidence presented by Sabom, reinforced by the observations of van Lommel and Parnia, indicates that consciousness, at the very least, can expand and observe the external environment independently of the physical senses, especially vision.
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I recently reread the AWARE I study and noticed that, according to the article, the patient not only heard the two beeps from the CPR machine but also accurately described the resuscitation procedure performed on him.
I had previously believed that the only verified information concerned the sounds of the beeps and the appearance of the doctor wearing a blue cap, but I was mistaken. The study confirms that the patient reported in detail the stages of the CPR, even though the medical team had declared him completely unconscious.
It is worth noting that, in the AWARE II study, Dr. Sam Parnia clarifies in the introduction that only about 1% of patients show any bodily movement or open their eyes during CPR — a phenomenon he refers to as “consciousness during CPR.”
However, in AWARE I, it was not observed that the patient displayed any external signs of consciousness during the procedure; on the contrary, he was considered deeply unconscious.
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Ive read Michael Sabom book Recollections of Death. I enjoyed reading it
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Any tthoughts on the new Veridical Near-Death Experience Scale? It was consensus based and all the big names seem on it. There are two recent articles on elaboration and validation.
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Well spotted, I will write up a full commentary on this at some point. Just moving into our new home this weekend, then in Sydney on a work trip next week, so may be a week or two, but it was a very good idea to create this:
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2025.1661390/full
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Slighty off topic, but food for thought. Answers on a postcard please. Paul”¬
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-mind-body-problem/202510/when-the-dying-wake-what-terminal-lucidity-reveals?fbclid=IwY2xjawNovdtleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHi7b5T2Tl8UDL7A5VK9PZRIcpEaqt5gZcp-wwj9zMsdzs7Q9cIIZp3NFliuG_aem_-FIGsAZXqYqXGrekgOInfA
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Very interesting read. Very interesting indeed. Paul”¬
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“I was an individual point of consciousness, surrounded by many other conscious beings, but focused entirely on one of those beings…God, a being of pure and infinite love.”
it makes god sound like a narcissist to me. thats the end goal? being concious and filled with love and staring at “god” for all eternity and admiring his greatness? we aren’t even allowed to interact and dote on our loved ones we made through the time of life? so it’s basically just like being permanently on a very good drug.
that sounds terrible to me. i don’t need to admire god to find pure and infinite love – i can find the same in my partner who knows everything about me, even my deepest bad parts and loves me ragrdless (same for me with them) it is my partner i want to spend eternity with and not staring at god 24/7 ignoring everything around me.
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You make a point that I have considered myself. I understand why you say what you do, and I cannot prove you wrong…I could be living in a delusion designed to feed this being unending love that it craves. However, all I can say is that what I experienced was 100% a two way street. I was being lavished with a love that I cannot begin to describe, and from all my experience of this being, I trust it completely, including its ultimate intentions. One of the reasons I trust this being is that I am certain he walked on this earth in the form of Jesus who could have made people love him, instead he chose humility, service and death. Moreover, there were other beings there in my experience, but for those moments I was caught up in the presence of the one being I call god. But yes, I could be believing a delusion, I just trust that I am not.
I wish you and your partner a life filled with growing deepening love for each other. I have found that with my wife.
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Hi Ben,
Are you describing your own NDE? I believe you described two in your book but I believe they weren’t your own. If you did experience an NDE could you share the story?
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It wasn’t an NDE as I didn’t die, but it was definitely what I would describe as a transcendental experience. I have shared it before, but happy to share again.
I was asleep, then dreamt that I woke up…I say dreamt as there is no way what followed was in this normal realm of reality. However, when I awoke, it felt absolutely normal. In fact it did not feel like a dream at all when things are usually strange, even if they don’t feel strange in the dream but only afterwards. However, my memory of this was of waking up in my bedroom with everything exactly how I left it. For some reason i felt compelled to get out of bed, get down on my knees and pray. I remember my elbows going into the beanbag on my floor…the one that was there when I awoke later. I said the “sinners prayer” and the moment I finished the room exploded into an infinite number of pieces like a mirror exploding. I found myself in what felt like a large hall or cavern. I couldn’t see anything, but I knew there were a number of beings…what I assumed were people…observing me, then I became aware of only one. Somehow I became connected to this being and I was instantly filled with infinite love…love that flowed between us in the most intense and fulfilling manner possible. It was perfect. I knew it was God. I never wanted anything else. Then I woke up and wasn’t quite sure what to make of it. I was a teenager and kind of dismissed it.
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Hello Lorenze. I accept your point, but I disagree. IMO the word ‘narcissist’, is used to often. Many times people are called a narcissist when they are misunderstood.
Rgds Paul
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Indeed, real narcissists are quite rare, and utterly selfish. They have zero empathy and their love is not real love.
But I do understand where Lorenze is coming from. With the information that “the world” has available to it, it is not illogical to conclude that if there is a God and he created everything, then he did so purely for his own self indulgence and pleasure, and that the love that we give him is a sugar rush for him. That understanding though is a choice, the other choice is to take what the New Testament says about God and Jesus and believe that. I have made the latter choice, and the extra evidence I have about the nature of this being that I have gained since making that choice, means that I am certain God is in this just as much as we are…in fact more.
In my book I talk about us being provided with an analogue of our origins and nature of the relationship between us and God. That analogue is the way children are naturally conceived and come into existence. Without their parents they cannot exist. All the material in them comes from their parents. They come out of one of their parents. They are the very physical essence of their parents, and yet they are utterly independent physical entities once born, and when they become adults, [normally] entirely independent. So it is with us and our spirit, or consciousness. I believe we are somehow born out of the nature or essence of God, but we are utterly independent with free choice.
Now I will take that analogy one step further than I did in my book.
[Good] Parents cannot help but love their children. They are compelled to love their children. They love them even when their children are disobedient. They love them when their children seem to hate them. They cannot do anything but love their kids, even if it breaks their hearts. So it is with God.
God is compelled to love us. His love for us is not a choice. His love for us is wild and lavish and he wants to give us everything he has and it breaks his heart when we reject him. This we know from the parable of the prodigal son, but unlike some parents, his love is not blind, and he has many children, and he knows that for his house to be one of order and peace, then he can only let those into it who choose to love him first, then others, above themselves because that is his nature, the rules of his home…love your [good] parent and others before yourself. This is not narcissistic, this is wise, good and fair.
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OK Ben. Let’s dig deeper in to what you say. Sure, God loves us, but why does he allow suffering in world? Now, the answer I have always been given is this ~ We are given choices. This is not correct. A 3 year old child who dies in a natural disaster has no choice. They don’t decide to live in such areas ~ They don’t have any blame attached.
No one has ever given me the answer to this. I doubt anyone ever will.
Rgds Paul”¬
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I have long pondered the issue of suffering, and while this is easy to say from the perspective of someone who has avoided significant suffering to this point in his life, suffering is only negative from our perspective where we regard things from a purely temporal rather than eternal perspective. The eternal impact of suffering may be positive. Think of the dentist…you suffer to avoid long term pain. The same may be true about suffering in this life. Take the example you gave…a three old child dying in a natural disaster. We cannot know how that life might have played out, but if NDEs are to be believed, children escape judgement and get a free pass to heaven, but maybe if that child had lived they might have made choices that led to eternal destruction.
I know that this answer won’t fully satisfy, but what I am trying to say is that we do not see the full picture and our minds are fixated only on what we see and understand in this dimension and I believe it is wrong to suggest that God is not loving because he allows suffering, when he himself suffered immeasurable torture on the cross for the sake of love. At that time, to those observing, his suffering looked like ultimate failure, pointless. To the Romans and Jewish leaders they had proven that he was not God by inflicting the suffering and death on him, and yet today billions believe he was God because of that very act. His extreme suffering was necessary to achieve one of the greatest victories in human history. This is beyond mortal understanding.
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Thank you Ben. That’s a well thought out, and good answer. It brings me another step closer to finding out the answer. Enjoy your day.
Rgds Paul”¬
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Could it be not alone tbat human beings have free choice, but all things in excistence have agency, whether aware of it or otherwise?
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I have absolutely no idea.
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Slavoj Zizek, philosopher, reasons “Only a suffering God can save us” and cannot intervene because this is how reality is set up. So we have free will. “God’s suffering implies that He is involved in history, affected by it, not just a transcendent Master pulling the strings from above: God’s suffering means that human history is not just a theater of shadows, but the place of the real struggle, the struggle in which the Absolute itself is involved and its fate is decided.”
Slavoj Zizek – Only a Suffering God Can Save Us I
This solves the issue of evil existing, war crimes, folks that seem to be evil at core, natural disasters killing thousands, stellar explosions destroying planets even? Zizek and Gunjevic wrote a great book on this, God in Pain, which I read. I also remember an account of the Holocaust where someone said there was an almost tangible pain in one place, as if there was a presence there – something was in there with everyone.
And aren’t we told that during NDE life reviews you learn the lesson of suffering by feeling what others felt by your actions? Seems to fit the pattern?
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Ben I saw in Popular Mechanics that a Cambridge scientist believes he has discovered that consciousness is created by a gland not in the brain.
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I suspect he may have been smoking something dodgy.
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hello ben. i think my first reply did not get through. i posted two links to the study of Peter Coppola scifi mentioned. but i will try again. would you like to tell us your opinion regarding this greenhorns work?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a69193158/seat-of-consciousness/
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Thanks Megina. I agree with much of what you say. I will try to look at the links later and provide my thoughts. I hope you recover from your sickness soon.
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do you mean this? we had many scientists come forward with all sorts of wild theories in the past. i hate how theories with little to now proper research always get such a big platform of attention.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/scientists-think-know-where-consciousness-130000764.html
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a69193158/seat-of-consciousness/
what is your opinion to this, ben? how serious can we take what i said in the article?
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sorry for another reply but i looked at the man who is working on this theory and found out that he is still very young and probably fresh out of school. what i am trying to say is… he is clearly obsessing over research about conciousness (a look at his past work shows it) and in this age you just have not yet collected enough experience in life to make proper decisions on it. that is how i personally view it.
but that aside… he is a freshly peeled egg with zero important publications (there are none listed on the cambridge registery on his account where he gives a short brief about himself) and this here is the only place where i found some of his research.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Coppola2
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Interesting account by Luis.
https://www.quora.com/Do-any-doctors-or-scientists-believe-reported-incidents-of-near-death-experiences-or-is-it-a-more-common-belief-that-the-typical-NDE-is-caused-by-a-dying-brain-releasing-small-amounts-of-DMT-resulting-in-a-common
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The more I read about science, the more I realize how dogmatic the field can be. I wouldn’t put a ton of weight on polls like these as people are scared of what other colleagues will think of them and what will happen to their funding/reputation. As recently as today I was listening to a podcast with Monica Gagliano, a biologist who studies plant intelligence, who was received with raised eyebrows and judgments by colleagues when she started studying plant acoustics (reaction to sounds and emission of sounds by plants).Even a guy I now consider as a genius like Michael Levin has to gather two years worth of data in the lab before talking about his results because he knows people will come for him. I saw him mention the concept of dualism in his most recent present, I can’t inagine the backlash he’ll get.
Btw Ben, I tried responding to your comment on the new scale but the website wouldn’t let me. Maybe my comment was too short? Anyways, was looking forward to read your analysis and wishing you a good trip!
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Thanks for reminding me! I will do it soon…lots of house stuff after our move. Not sure why your comment didn’t appear. It’s not in the pending folder.
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Hi Paul,
Michael Levin’s work is really interesting. What did he say about dualism?
Also what poll are you referring to?
Regards
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the same scientists obsessing over cortexes and whatnot to proove that is where conciousness is coming from (sorry if my english is bad, i am sick and it is not my main language, i cannot focus well at the moment) should sit down and think about why if this is the case and all is biological why real near death experiences are always the same. there is no evolutionary gain or survival gain in seeing the tunnel, light, dead loved ones, godly figures or whatever. it has been like this even before it became “popular” and if the body is trying to survive or save energy everything would go “black” to save energy and having a widened conciousness during death is the opposite it is very energy draining. they dodge these things on purpose. because they know there is no proper explanation for this. they are very creative and can talk down many things but this is out of “logic”.
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Hello Megina. I hope your sickness passes soon. Now I’m going to play devils advocate, with this one.
You wrote;
>>>there is no evolutionary gain or survival gain in seeing the tunnel, light, dead loved ones, godly figures or whatever<<<
A materalist would argue there is. It’s the brains way of ‘blocking’ the fear of a persons final moments. The brain is simply coping ~ Not panicing. This could be said to be an evolutionary gain. The brain is simply coping with the circumstances, and avoiding fear.
Rgds Paul”¬
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I think the devil is having a bad day! From an evolutionary perspective fear is precisely what you need if your heart has stopped. You need Adrenalin pumping around your body firing your heart up. Remember, this is not pre-CA this is post CA that NDEs are occurring and the body has seconds to “self-resuscitate” an event that is in itself very rare. The fact is that without medical intervention the vast majority of these people would stay dead, so the experience is providing no benefit from a physiological and therefore an evolutionary perspective…if anything an extreme hellish fear would be the best option for potentially restarting the heart.
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@Paulbounce I don’t think one could argue this for two reasons. One, fearing death is adaptative in the sense that it makes you eager to protect yourself. Secondly, and most importantly in mechanistic terms, I don’t see how selection of this type could occur as the person is dying (ie his/her genes won’t be passed down).
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No specific polls in mind, just hearing people on podcasts. As for Michael Levin, he mentions quickly dualism on the last presentation on his academic YouTube channel. He advocates that there is a space, similar to a platonic space (he calls it this way only out of respect for the general idea that is not his), in which different kinds of minds can exist. When the circumstances are suited, these minds can be expressed in the real world. I suspect his newest work will give more details, but his previous work is truly fascinating. He was able to show that even simple algorithms can display some types of learning that they weren’t coded for. He was also able to show that organisms are able to adapt quickly without having to go through the standard evolution process.. In sum, he shows how intelligence is basically everywhere, even in single cells. He’s very opened and knowledgeable about “fringe” science like terminal lucidity, NDEs, etc. We could discuss this further, but his view makes a lot of sense to me to explain different phenomenon like mystical experience, NDEs, mediumship, etc.
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I didn’t realize he’s knowledgeable about NDEs. That’s really cool. Has he said anything that indicated what his stance is or do you have any sources which discuss his views on the topic?
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He hints it in many recent podcasts and videos and also in a recent article freely available entitled “Robustness of the Mind-Body Interface: case studies of unconventional information flow in the multiscale living architecture”. He cites Parnia’s studies in it. Thing is, as I mentioned, he seems to proceed very carefully in claiming stuff. However, he also clearly states his assumptions about a reality existing outside of our known reality, a space where maths, patterns and kinds of minds exist.
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Check out the book Immortal Minds by Michael Egnor. Its a good read
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Some abstracts from a current heart meeting from Sam Parnia and co. Maybe of some interest:
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat906https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat904https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sun606
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https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat906
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat904
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sun606
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Some abstracts from a current heart meeting from Sam Parnia and co. Maybe of some interest
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat906
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sat904
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.152.suppl_3.Sun606
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Thanks Z. Nothing too exciting though unfortunately.
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I do think these set the tone for further exploration (the spo2 study) or to revalidate known phenomenon through new means (the two others). I think it is important to diversify studies like they do. Thanks for sharing!
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i liked the 906 one. About thevrecall.different in REDs to hallunications and dreams.
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This years Scientific and Medical Network beyond the brain 2025 will interview Sam Parnia among others. They will also have a tribute to Peter Fenwick as well. Its from November 7 to 9
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i am unsble to see sam parnia on the programme
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Hi Dr. Wedgwood. First of all, I’m really sorry to hear about your mother. That must have been incredibly hard.
I was deeply struck by the way you described your transcendental experience as a teenager. That moment that you describe as the room “exploding into an infinite number of pieces” and you felt connected to a being of infinite love definitely sounds like a beautiful experience.
I do wonder, though, while this does have elements similar to experiences such as terminal lucidity and NDEs (or REDs, as I prefer to call them), as you mention, it is not really any of these. An awakening experience, perhaps?
What would you call it if you had to go deeper than just labelling it a mystical or transcendental experience?
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That’s a really good question. I have avoided stating to others exactly what it is because I cannot really define it myself. Like with NDEs it felt more real than real life, and time no longer existed…it could have been ten seconds or ten thousand years. I guess it is an experience that defies explanation, unless you are reductionist who would say it all happened in the head. I cannot deny this possibility, but it was unlike anything else that had ever ” happened in my head”, but at the same time shared some of the sensations I now experience when I enter a state of intense worship of God, sometimes on my own, but more often in a charismatic church. I catch a glimpse of that experience.
For me, more than anything though it was connection with the being I call God through the Christian prayer. It is one of the pillars of my faith. I have actual experience of God in all his loving glory, with my flesh stripped away. It is was a gift from this being to me that has helped sustain me through the years. I think of that experience and I have no doubts about the existence and nature of God and as a result I have deep faith and trust in “Him”.
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Thank you so much for explaining all of that so clearly and beautifully. The way you describe the “more real than life” quality and the collapse of time makes your experience incredibly striking. I often think that aside from the empirical aspects of NDEs/REDs (veridical elements, cross-cultural similarities, the difficulty of fitting them into traditional explanations, etc.), what makes them feel so compelling is how distinct they are from anything ordinary consciousness can produce.
Some reductionists may dismiss that as wishful thinking, as you mentioned, but it’s hard to convey what these states are actually like. Trying to explain them really does seem, as beautifully put, like “trying to draw an odour.”
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I like that…trying to draw an odour. Precisely captures the lack of ability people have to describe experiences from outside the dimensions we live in.
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Hi everyone,
think its new, but not sure:
Seems a bit one sided…
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Thanks for this. Haven’t watched the whole thing, maybe later, but we are very familiar with Jimo Borjigin on this blog. I have reviewed her studies and presentations in previous posts (and a Youtube video that I have now deactivated), and to say these studies, or rather the findings, are flawed is a massive understatement, and in fact she is either deliberately misleading or lacks appropriate expertise when it comes to some of her observations and remarks.
For instance in her coma patient studies she makes the claim that patients who have their machines turned off experience brain activity associated with consciousness during cardiac arrest. Whether or not the activity could be consciousness is irrelevant because all the EEG activity is not during CA, but prior to it while the heart is still beating. She also makes some very disparaging remarks about leaders in the field like Bruce Greyson, remarks which are not only insulting, but actually wrong.
In general I would take everything she says with a mountain of salt.
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Check out the latest episode of the Seeking I podcast. Episode 102.The host interviews Ed Kelly the director of the university of Virginia division of perceptual studies. They discuss Dr. Borjigins research. Its very informative
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What do they say?
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I tried to post the video here. Go on youtube and type in seeking I podcast episode 102.Maybe you will be able to post it here.
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I like that…trying to draw an odour. Precisely captures the lack of ability people have to describe experiences from outside the dimensions we live in
Try hearing a colour. It can be done. Paul”¬
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https://www.lifespan.io/campaigns/public-longevity-group/
So there is this. I think it really stinks that we are approaching the end of this and the fact we are past the halfway but not even gotten to the goal is saddening especially considering it hasn’t had a single failed fundraiser but this is shaping up to be the first. Spread the word. At this point advocacy is important and I feel that this is vital to saving lives as it can help promote better health and help to improve the healthcare industry to prolong healthy life.
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I don’t know if this has been mentioned but there’s a newish paper out by Bruce G.
A Neuroscientific Model of Near-Death Experiences Reconsidered
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