AWARE IIIa results
Firstly, thanks to Peter for bringing this to my attention. It was published a couple of days ago:
I have called this study AWARE IIIa as it is latest in a sequence of studies involving Sam Parnia (don’t think there is a formal name for this study at the moment). The first author is Joshua Ross, a resident physician at NYU Langone, and Parnia is the last-named author. First and last names on a publication are always considered the principal players in the study.
I call it IIIa because it is a pilot study looking at the feasibility of a larger potential study looking into consciousness during deep hypothermic circulatory arrest (DHCA). We have been waiting for something from this for a while now, especially as I have noted previously that recruitment started summer 2020. This paper confirms that and reports on patients recruited from 7/20 to 1/22 from 10 hospitals. It was funded by NYU and the Templeton foundation.
The idea of a study like this has been bouncing around for a while now. One of the most famous NDEs ever, Pam Reynolds, occurred during DHCA. The patient’s heart is stopped slowly under controlled conditions by cooling the body to less than 20 °C, surgery is performed, usually within 1 hour, then the body slowly warmed and the heart restarted. It is now a relatively routine procedure for types of surgery where stopping blood flow is important.
Given that the heart stops – cardiac arrest or CA – this has often been regarded as a possible model for NDEs under controlled conditions with the massive advantage that patients survive (only about 10-20% of in-hospital CAs survive to discharge). Given that patients undergoing DHCA have actually reported NDEs (or REDs), exploring this further made a lot of sense, and I was previously very excited about such a study. However, despite some early positive data from the Montreal study led by Beauregard, a more recent study showed no NDEs in a cohort of DHCA patients (HCA study from 2021). This led to me being a bit skeptical about a DHCA study producing a hit. My thinking was that maybe the patient had to be conscious prior to CA, and for the experience to be sudden for the consciousness to be “jolted out of the brain” or to allow disinhibition to occur, as Parnia would say.
Anyway, on to the study:
Design: feasibility study using similar equipment to that deployed in AWARE II – namely an ipad with images only visible from above and earbuds repeating words, as well as EEG and oximetry equipment. All of this would obviously be in place prior to CA, a huge advantage to AWARE II, as would patient consent be.
Results: Remember this is only a pilot to establish methodology, so the numbers were small:
- 35 post procedure interviews
- No explicit recall of images or words (3 fruits) – i.e. no one remembered seeing the images or hearing the words during the procedure
- 1 NDE/RED experience, but without an OBE
- 2 patients had recollections more consistent with CPRIC or ICU delirium
- 3 patients (8.6%) were able to guess the fruits correctly – the authors suggests this may imply implicit recall (i.e. they heard it, subconsciously recorded hearing it, but don’t remember hearing), I think this is a big stretch, something they acknowledge as well, as I will explain below
- Cerebral activity showed 70% of patient brains were isoelectric (no activity) during DHCA with about 30% having delta waves
My initial response to this was disappointment as once again we have a study without a hit, but on reflecting overnight on it, I am not so discouraged. Why is that?
Once again the numbers were small. Only 35 were interviewed. Now if these were CAs that occurred in an ICU or ER and were sudden as with most NDEs, you would expect 3-6 NDE/RED reports, but there is only one. If my thinking outlined above is correct – namely that a sudden/unexpected cessation of heartbeat while conscious is normally required for the consciousness to “untether” then you would either expect no NDEs from a DHCA study, or a much lower incidence. That may be why we only see one RED (although that is one more than was seen in the 2021 study).
Given that that there was only one reported RED (i.e. an experience meeting the stricter criteria outlined in the 2022 consensus statement – something I am leaning to much more given some of the physicalist’s adoption of the term NDE to describe all kinds of non-classical NDE events) and that normally only 20-25% of people who have a RED report an OBE (in this dimension at least), then you would not expect an OBE, especially one that noticed the screen.
As for guessing the fruits – banana, apple, pear – I suspect that if you asked 100 people to randomly name the first 3 fruits that came into their heads maybe 5-10% would come up with this combination. If it had been Apple, Banana orange it would probably be 30%. Anyway, the authors acknowledge that not too much should be made of this finding as chance may play a part. (they need to change the words and images for future studies as people familiar with these studies may taint the results)
Sceptics may argue that I am clutching at straws by remaining positive here, and they may be right, but if this had been a study with 10 times the number of patients, and there had been no NDEs with OBEs, then I might agree. As it is, I think my position is rational, if on the optimistic side.
In conclusion (from our perspective), while there was no OBE with explicit recall of images, given the 1 RED, this DHCA pilot study hints at the possibility of using DHCAs as a better method for exploring consciousness during CA, and specifically REDs. However, accounting for the possibility of a lower prevalence of REDs from this procedure than that seen in the unplanned CA population, much larger numbers may be needed. Hopefully they carried on with collecting data after January 2022 and we won’t have to wait another 5 years! Moreover, I hope they are continuing collecting data for AWARE II since it is still possible DHCAs may prove a dead end.
Parnia continues to lead the way in research into consciousness during CA. He is genuinely an outstanding researcher in this field and I hope that one day his labor and perseverance will be rewarded. All power to Parnia!
Finally, if you haven’t already, please visit this site which has my books on NDEs etc and feel free to buy one! If you read a book, liked it but not yet reviewed/rated it, then please do so. Finally I am in process of creating audiobook versions of some of the books which will be available later in June.
AwareofAware 
Sure Khushru. I totally tune in to you…
Enjoy your Sunday.
Paul Out “>
Bennnnnnnnnnn???
LikeLike
Google is our friend…
>>>>>Yes, Pam Reynolds reported hearing a loud noise in her ears during her near-death experience, even though she was wearing earphones that were emitting clicking sounds, according to reports from the time of her surgery. These clicks were intended to monitor brain activity during her standstill operation, and were quite loud, making it unlikely she could have heard anything else through normal auditory pathways, says a report from UNT Digital Library.
Here’s why this is significant:
LikeLiked by 1 person
Google AI sometimes gets confused and gives opposite answers to the same question. Given below is another contradictory answer by Google to the same question:
“Yes, that’s correct. Despite the use of headphones emitting clicking sounds during her surgery to monitor her consciousness, Pam Reynolds did not report hearing these clicking sounds. This is notable because it suggests that even though the sounds were present, they were either not perceived or were not salient enough to be recalled during her near-death experience.
Here’s why this is significant:
Sensory input:The fact that she didn’t report hearing them, despite the documented presence of the sounds, raises questions about the nature of her experience and what sensory information she might have been processing.
Clinical safeguards:The clicking sounds were part of the medical protocol to ensure Reynolds was unconscious during the procedure.”
LikeLike
Hi. 4 sure Chatty will give different answers, depending on the ‘prompt’ you use. He tends to agree with people, and ideas presented to him..
I notice his reply to you starts with ‘yes, that’s correct’. Maybe you nudged him in a certain direction to give that reply? I always use an open prompt, not giving a clue about the type of answer I wish to have.
With respect, your answer confirms mine. Reynolds could not hear the ear plugs. She could however, recall other sounds going in the room. This was confirmed by medical staff to be correct.
Paul “>
LikeLike
Right 👍
LikeLiked by 1 person
I’m glad someone else thought of this. I have been pondering this as well and wondered if I was missing something basic since I could not understand why people were placing headphones on the patient unless it was maybe to invalidate the idea of the objectivity of an OBE.
One thing that should be mentioned about the Pam Reynolds case which the community often misses is that the loud clicks were only produced on one side. The other side produced white noise I think. Unfortunately I don’t know how loud the white noise was.
LikeLike
The issue with Pam is whether she was, or was not in burst suppression coinciding with the periods she recalled the experience from. It should not be possible to recall auditory information during the period of burst suppression. Hence Pam’s recall of auditory information from the period she was in burst suppression is difficult to reconcile. The only competing solution is to claim that Pam wasn’t in burst suppression, which the brain surgeon Dr. Robert Spetzler denies.
However very recently, we have now 2 or 3 studies showing that Burst Suppression which is thought to be a global state across the whole cortex, may not be correct. These new studies show that the auditory and visual portions of the cortex are completely disconnected from the burst suppression state existing throughout the rest of the cortex. The visual and auditory areas of the brain appear to do something completely different during burst suppression. This casts some doubt on the idea that it should not be possible to recall auditory information during periods of burst suppression.
The solution to all this, is to design new studies which generally measure the visual accuracy of the recalled medical-type NDE OBE using visual targets that are generally available, instead of the current studies which only use hidden and secret visual targets.
let’s at least try to gather scientific evidence as to whether the recalled visual information is even accurate, before we start making assumptions that we know from where the recalled visual information is coming from.
50 years on from Raymond Moody’s book, there are still Zero studies that are measuring the visual accuracy of these recalled experiences.
LikeLiked by 1 person
i think there has been a study done like this in some sense though it may not be exactly what you’re looking for. I believe Sabom did a retrospective study where he asked patients to describe their medical procedures. The patients that claimed to have an OBE gave a description that was typically far more accurate than patients that didn’t have an OBE. The question is whether they gleaned this information from some sort of cues or whether they could really experience what was going on through an OBE.
i think that’s why people like Parnia are placing more effort in a double blind study like hidden targets. I think this would be considered the gold standard in terms of proving whether OBEs are all in our head or something more.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I don’t know about Sabom, but I know Penny Sartori included this research in her 5 year study. IIRC asking experients vs non-experients to describe their resuscitation procedure. Experients recalled the resuscitation far more accurately than non-experients – as you describe.
Regarding visual targets, Penny also told me she had deliberately used hidden and secret visual targets in her study, to remove the possibility of telepathy being involved.
There will never be a hit on a hidden, secret, real-time visual target. We’ve never had anything work like that, ever, that’s never the type of information people recall. And we have so many stories where experients know what a third party was privately thinking… which points directly at third parties being the source of this anomalous information… and Robert Mays work on child NDE OBE’s where children literally describe themselves as going into their sister, and “looking out of her eyes” …and then we have all the parapsychology-type work, Ganzfeld etc., and really solid stuff like Sheldrake’s work with Jaytee the dog.
And we have loads of hard experimental evidence in science, and theories in cutting edge theoretical physics that open the door to new ideas..
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think there were instances of hidden targets being spotted but not in a prospective study. Two cases come to mind that were talked about in the self does not die. One involved a patient seeing a number on top of a machine that was too high up for anyone to see but was recollected by the patient. Another involved a coin with a year on it that was also recollected by the patient.
Are you suggesting that telepathy may be the cause of ONE/NDE experiences?
LikeLike
I’m trying to get across that what you think of as ‘hidden’ things, are not in any way similar to the hidden secret target methodology used by Parnia or Sartori.
I’ve tried to give a a few brief notes below on what I mean…
LikeLiked by 1 person
Max wrote: >>50 years on from Raymond Moody’s book, there are still Zero studies that are measuring the visual accuracy of these recalled experiences<<
It took Mankind a long time to work out the earth isn’t flat. Eratosthenes, is credited with being the first person to make this point. It took near enough, 300,000 years.
50 years is not much time. I feel science is moving at an alarming rate. We’ll hit the darkness (or maybe not), before science finds the final destination 😉 It won’t be in our life times, but it will happen.
Paul “><“
LikeLike
PSI springs to mind, regarding your last post. Maybe this is the answer to NDEs? However, I’m not sure it gives all the answers.
Paul “>”
LikeLike
I don’t care for the label, and all the baggage it comes with Paul. But yes, it’s almost certain, that the mechanism/s hiding behind other anomalous phenomena, will also be involved in NDE OBE phenomena.
All my research has forced me to accept that people really do recall experiences which are not their own. And that this is probably the basis of most common anomalous human phenomena.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Max, I am really intrigued by your position on this. I am not disagreeing that people are able to access to other peoples recollections of experiences but I have a couple of questions about this in relation to what we have talked about.
1. The dusty quarter. How could someone having an OBE and who claims to have seen a dusty quarter be accessing someone else’s experience? What experience would that be?
2. To access someone else’s experience, you have to be experiencing something yourself…you can end up in an illogical loop if you state that all OBEs and NDEs are just your accessing other people’s experiences.
LikeLiked by 1 person
This is very difficult to explain… below are a small selection of shorthand notes…
You would have to understand more about QM and wormholes to realise why ‘…illogical loop…’ things don’t feature. Everything gets ‘flattened’ to an observation, becomes a fact, and is never lost.
You would also have to go on a journey to nail down your ideas about perception. Generally starting with whether perception is direct, or indirect. Otherwise any discussion we had would made using completely different assumptions. It has taken me many years to let go of my naive ideas about perception.
We are all stuck within Experience, trying to understand Experience from within it. And Experience is shared.
The brain only seems to store weighted associations. Experience seems to arise from ‘something else’ within it’s networks that has the right sort of low-power, passive, isolation to allow matching patterns to add up between different Spacetimes.
To help explain… we could think of this ‘something else’ as being analogous to a 2×4 Classic Lego Brick. We all share the same Lego brick, allowing us to have this shared Experience, but the networks we each build out of these shared Lego bricks are all different (like fingerprints). You might build a car from your Lego bricks, I might build a aeroplane from mine. In that way, we each have a unique and rich perspective upon Experience from our different constructions. But these constructions are still built from the base Lego brick which we all share.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I had recently finished reading the book ‘La Ultima Puerta’ by Miguel Angel Pertierra. I believe at least one of his cases was reported on in ‘The Self Does Not Die’. I think he was also mentioned in an article I had posted here at some point. Essentially the book is like ‘The Self Does Not Die’. It gives a bunch of NDE cases but I don’t know how deeply the author vetted these cases. The author also had an NDE himself resulting from a motorcycle accident and he discussed why the possible medical explanations that are typically given did not explain his experience.
Here is an abridged Summary:
=================
The author has mentioned that there were quite a few cases of NDEs that were talked about between medical personnel
p 19
A patient saw a doctor drop his keys with a brown leather case during the patient’s surgery
p 26
The author was an acquaintance of another NDE researcher, Dr Enrique Vila, who has written books about NDEs
p 68
A patient recalled special surgical scissors with three parts being used on her. She also recalls orange parts being used. Apparently the orange part was some sort of tubing. The author emphasizes that during procedures this part isn’t typically referred to by its color, making it unlikely that she was able to pick up this detail from a conversation.
pp 93-95
A patient had an NDE in which he saw his house but it contained a room he was not familiar with. This room didn’t exist to his knowledge but a wall was in its place. He told this story to his parents but was brushed off. Some time later there was construction at the house and this former patient decided to explore what was beyond the wall and used a hammer to make a hole in the wall and discovered that there was indeed an unknown former room behind the wall. The NDE experiencer investigated the background of the house when he got older by contacting the former owner. Supposedly during a war a deserter hid in this room. After the war the room was sealed off to prevent any accusations of aiding a deserter.
p 119
An architect had an NDE/OBE. During this experience he had seen his childhood hometown that he had not visited in a long time. He saw the place where there had been a field where he had played soccer but instead he saw there had been a building and a new street. After his experience he drew the building he had seen in his experience and revisited his hometown and confirmed that the building was there.
p 166
An OBE patient was able to recall how his family was informed of his condition over the phone. The patient’s wife let out a scream and the couple’s child tripped over a toy and hit its head. The patient was able to recall these details even though they didn’t happen in his vicinity.
p 179
An OBE patient was able to see a painting that had been in his home taken down and had the protective glass shattered which was later confirmed.
p 195
An OBE patient was able to see a picture of the Virgin Mary at her bedside at home (not in the hospital where the patient was staying).
LikeLiked by 2 people
Wow. Just WOW. There’s some interesting OBEs in there for sure.
# ‘Ben’. The secure connection appears to need renewing on the forum. Just a heads up. It could just be me, and my Firewall. If not, it’s easy to fix. Take about 3 minutes 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oh, how do I do that?
LikeLike
Come on Ben, lets get rocking with your SLL. Cor blimey, you have a PhD, and have written books. Haha, yet SLL, remains a mistry
Some people, heheh.
Just Google ‘how to get SLL’.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The book The Self Doesn’t Die is a good read. So is the second edition. Dr. Parnia book Lucid Dying and Dr. Michael Egnor book Immortal Minds are good reads too
LikeLiked by 1 person
Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaxxxx ??? Discuss plz 😉
LikeLiked by 1 person
Max_B, you are doing the same mistake many before you have done. you think you got “the” answer to the problem. this is your very own personal research but i promise you hundreds of other people have their own research too that would disprove yours and that are firmly convinced they are in the right.
that is why people like ben like to observe and analyze people like parnia and their work, benefit from it, talk about it and take temporary conclusions they however never state to be a fact. it helps avoiding a stoic mindset and keeps you open for new possible theories that even could overthrow your own. many times ben stated that he’d even accept it if in the end everything turns out to be plain physical and “nothing there” after all, even if he’d be very sad about it. but he does not close the door to anything that could be a threat to his belief.
i warmly advise you to do the same. you sound a bit like you got lost on your own way. what you are researching there is interesting but the moment you start to do the job for multiple scientists in different fields that all need their own education of many years you lose.
you can’t be an expert in QM, neuroscience, the cardiovascular system, physics and more. you would have to in order to set your theory in stone and give it strong credibility.
that is why many scientists and doctors of all fields are working together usually to test out theories and find solutions. they have access to files and datas never for us normal people to be seen because of privacy. they have the money, methods and data.
we just have google.
LikeLiked by 1 person
i forgot to add…
that even a lot of scientists with all their reach to data from all over the world and working with other get off track easily sometimes and try to bend facts and biology as we have seen in some articles before, haha. as long as it supports their own view.
even there the temptation is huge to be stoic. this means for a private person it is even more dangerous to lose sight.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you for your great responses Megina. As the writer of the blog I have to be tempered in how deal with certain comments, so it was nice to have someone else say what I might have 🙂
LikeLike
You appear skeptical Megina, which is good. However without specific data or arguments, it’s hard to see how your critique advances our discussions of NDEs and OBEs.
LikeLike
dear max, it was not meant to advance anything. it was a well meant warm advise coming from my heart trying to remind you to stay open minded and flexible. that was all there was to it.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Your reminder for flexibility and open-mindedness regarding our NDE & OBE discussion rings hollow without data or arguments in support of your contention, so please share some?
LikeLike
I think one of the issues we are having Max is that you are very strident in the advancement of your theory, but no one, including myself seems to fully understand it. I still don’t feel like I have an answer to my question regarding the dusty quarter.
Please be specific in how your theory explains how someone who is clinically dead lying on an operating table with no ECG or EEG i.e. no brain activity, can see a dusty quarter on top of cabinet through shared consciousness.
LikeLike
i think you do not understand me. it’s fine. have a good day.
LikeLike
To be fair, this discussion transpired, because earlier you were claiming that Parnia/Sartori’s hidden secret visual target methodology was equivalent to coin’s on hospital furniture, and serial numbers on surgical lights. I thought you were wrong, and gave a long response here:
https://awareofaware.co/2025/05/29/aware-iiia-results/comment-page-1/#comment-153963
You didn’t respond, and you still haven’t responded.
LikeLike
I wasn’t quite sure what to make of it because the people recalling these events in their OBEs claimed they were hovering above these objects and seeing them static in situ, not being cleaned, or placed there de novo. In the instance of the dusty quarter in particular, it would not have been dusty when it was first placed there. Your theory of shared memory does not correlate with the reports of what these people actually see if I am honest.
LikeLiked by 1 person
You claim/ed that Parnia/Sartori’s hidden secret visual target methodology was equivalent to coin’s on hospital furniture, and serial numbers on surgical lights.
It’s not.
Sartori caught doctors climbing up on ladders to looking at her hidden secret visual target. She told me she had to scrap all the targets, and start again with a new series of targets that had nothing in common with the first set.
IIRC, targets were shuffled, and randomly chosen and slid into place covered by a card. Once the target was in place, the card cover was removed when the target was out of sight.
Coins and Serial numbers – although apparently veridical and indicating anomalous access to information – are not secret, and may not even qualify as hidden.
LikeLike
There were two serial number OBEs. One was involving the lights which I didn’t mention because I thought there was some chance someone may have seen it around the time of surgery. The interview by Dr Yerrington kind of suggests this.
There was another instance however where a patient was able to see a number that wouldn’t have been clearly visible. It was on top of a tall machine (7ft tall) and it was probably unlikely someone looked at the number during the procedure.
Here’s a video that mentions the incident. You can search for it using key words like: Norma bowe serial number. I can’t post a link unfortunately because the site doesn’t let me but it’s on Vimeo i think.
LikeLiked by 3 people
Thanks Pablo, I found that video and transcribed Norma Bowe’s comments about that case. (WordPress won’t let me post them for some reason).
The patient came into the intensive care unit in a coma from a closed head injury, and stayed in the ICU, in a coma for several weeks. She was resuscitated approx 4 to 5 times. The ventilator was thought to be around 7 feet tall. It was mobile, and seemed to be moved around the hospital to where ever it was needed by the hospital maintenance people. A maintenance man climbed a ladder on the day it was being removed, and apparently dusted off the top, to enable him to see the number, which matched what the patient had told Norma.
I don’t know when the ventilator was moved into position. Whether having ladders was a feature of moving or setting up the ventilator. I’ve looked at early ventilators here: https://museum.aarc.org/galleries/early-icu-ventilators/ They don’t tend to be that tall (not 7ft)… but there is one part of the Bennett MA-1 (clear glass or plastic cylinder on a metal pip, which seems elevated enough that it might reach perhaps 6ft. It seems the MA-1 was the most popular machine in use within the USA, for long term ventilation, during the late 70’s
LikeLiked by 1 person
Max_B, I’m curious, what’s your theory exactly? In particular, what’s consciousness and what happens after death? I can’t seem to find one theory that’s fully satisfying despite reading dozens of them lol thanks!
LikeLiked by 2 people
You can find more of my writings in the comments on Ben’s blog, my own out-of-date blog https://thinkingdeeper.wordpress.com/, on the psiencequest.net under Max_B (and the Skeptiko forum – what’s left of it after Alex gutted it), and on x.com @maxxbone – which may give you more information about my ideas.
LikeLike
max, you cannot expect people to talk / argue with you about things if they HAVE to believe in your own theory first in order to have a proper talk with you and understand where you are coming from.
you do the mistake materialists do. they are dead set on there being no soul and therefore do not understand or talk on a neutral basis when trying to connect with dualists / the like.
you quite frankly believe your theory is a fact. and i dont know if your theory is materialistic or dualist even. it never became clear.
again, i am not trying to sound rude. but i have read your comments, your x account and outdated blog. very confusing and all over the place. and your response to ben where you quite harshly ask him to respond to your questions.
most of us go with the feeling that we are not just a simple “shared experience” as if we are one big hive mind.
most of us do not reject the idea of being able to connect with other souls and see / feel things through their eyes (as seen in life reviews) but we still are our own energy and being. and it is totally okay if we do not know some things. this to me is even more evidence that we are all unique and not just “one being”.
—
but since i spend so much time trying to understand you here are my two cents to your whole stuff:
you say person A having an OBE can only know about a coin on a cupboard when person B saw person C put the coin there making it a shared experience because during an OBE person A is somehow becoming person B or entering person Bs mind and having access to their memory making use of that shared experience. but person B had to see it or person A would not be able to see that coin in person Bs memories or know of its existence.
let alone how confusing that sounds this makes no sense to me because there is person C who hid the target and person A could have connected to person C in case person B did not see person C hiding the coin. or person A could have connected to everything and everyone at once if we are all just one big shared mess. no need to connect to just one person.
if this was the way it works this would make it easy for people having an OBE to find hidden targets. because the people who hid the targets contain that knowledge and if everything is a connected shared mind with memories the person having the OBE would have quick access to that knowledge, tell doctors all about the targets hidden everywhere and boom: case closed.
your theory only allows one constellation: that it always has to work that way without accidents like “someone not knowing about the targets”. either we are a shared experience or we are not. so you do not get to cherry pick experiences of people that had an OBE and saw something important or not.
people that had an OBE not being able to tell us about hidden stuff in a room are more of an evidence that we are all unique bundles of energy. some of us are able to see or feel specific moments in a life review through someone elses eyes but however nature made this possible your theory is not the key however furstrating this must sound. our current understanding of science and the tools we use are the equivalent of caveman tools. imagine a caveman trying to understand pythagoras.
—
this is all i wanted to say regarding your theory. there won’t be more so do not worry. you do not have to argue back and forth with me. i just thought you might feel a bit more relaxed that someone read through the things you said.
i hope my response this time was satisfying to you.
—
to everyone else: have a nice weekend!
LikeLike
Megina, your suggestion that I’m rigidly fixed on my OBE “theory”, paired with your own unbacked assertions about “unique energies,” bypasses discussions about the actual data.
The devil is in the detail of our observations. Some speculative ideas about the NDE OBE fit with our observations, some don’t. Teasing these out is interesting and fun, and frankly anybody is welcome to have a go with their own ideas.
Regarding the coin (brought up by Ben) – I’m actually claiming that Parnia/Sartori hidden secret visual targets will never be seen. Further, that coins on the top of monitors, are in no way equivalent to the very strict hidden secret visual target methodology used by Parnia/Sartori.
What people seem to visually recall, are things that are already available in Experience… and not things that are truly secret in a strict sense.
Regarding QM, our observations suggest that no correlations are ever lost, no matter how far away they are in space, or time.
Recent work also suggests these correlations can even be recovered from a black hole – rather than being destroyed – this is also the subject of an earlier book ‘The Black Hole War’ by Leonard Susskind – an excellent read.
I’ll just randomly leave this here… from around time 29:45 Juan Maldacena makes an interesting claim, that might prick the ears of anyone really listening.
LikeLike
I’m curious about the statement that no correlation is ever lost. Are you referring to entanglement? My understanding is that entanglement is quite fragile and is lost after measurement. Thanks!
LikeLike
Paul, no, I’m just talking about information (not being lost). And yes, entangled sub-systems are not entangled once they are measured.
LikeLike
Ok, but then what is information if it’s not a particule? Your theory is based on something more being fundamental?
LikeLike
I don’t know what this means “What is information if it’s not a particle?”
LikeLike
I will not pretend I’m advanced in physics lol but I was referring to particules because they entangle. How do you define information would probably be a better question. Might seem trivial but it’s not since theories like IIT are challenged on premises like that.
LikeLike
I dunno why you’re asking me these questions on this blog?
LikeLike
Because everyone is referring to your theory and I haven’t it found it clearly stated on your link (might have missed it though). I’m asking out of genuine curiosity. You refer to information and experience so I wanted their operational definitions. You can refer me to specific blog posts if it’s too long.
LikeLike
I suspect we share interests as I read and watch a lot of content on biology, chemistry, QM and particle physics as well as philosophy and paranormal phenomena of all kind. I haven’t really found a theory that convinced me, unless theorizing on things we haven’t discovered or tested yet (like extra dimension, new fundamental realities, etc.)
LikeLike
I read somewhere that Juan Maldacena is catholic.
LikeLike
Paul, I don’t have a ‘theory’, it is other people who put words into my mouth, and label my ideas and general perspective as a ‘theory’ – I wouldn’t be so grandiose.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I am probably guilty of that Max, sorry if I misunderstood your previous comments.
I certainly 100% agree that all experiences and memories of those experiences are most likely available for other conscious beings to experience themselves, most likely once their bodies are dead (clinically or otherwise) but maybe under other circumstances. I do not believe memories are stored in the brain, but are basically stored somewhere else. This seems to be the evidence from so many NDE reports, especially the fact that during the life review they get to experience their actions from other people’s perspective.
However, I think many of us here do not think that is what is going on with OBEs, but would be prepared to accept that if suitable evidence was provided…which as far as I am aware, it has not.
The dusty quarter is one I focus on due to the fact that the quarter is dusty and has therefore not been disturbed by a cleaner for a long time and therefore extremely unlikely that anyone had observed it in its “dusty” state suggesting that the person who reported the OBE was the only one who actually saw it in that state.
LikeLike
Well you’re still skirting around the issue of your earlier claim that Parnia/Sartori visual targets are equivalent to coins and serial numbers. Which I claim they are not, and hence why hidden secret visual targets will never be seen – according to my ideas.
I don’t have any reason to doubt the anomalous visual recollection of medical NDE OBE’rs, (I had a veridical childhood OBE myself). But we generally don’t have the factual context of the scene of the crime – as it were – to go further.
Norma Bowe says in the recorded video Pablo kindly provided “… back then, the ventilators were maybe seven feet tall from the floor…” they key word used here is “..maybe…” no one has checked… when I go into the photographs of early ventilators… there are no ventilators recorded as being anywhere near seven foot in height (unless you include the adjustable arms which are sometimes fitted to support the breathing tubes out of the way). This doesn’t mean there isn’t a ventilator that high, but Norma isn’t sure, she say’s maybe… But no one has checked into this case… and the scene of the crime is so old that it has gone cold. I don’t dispute the anomalous information, just the context of the case.
From memory, there are two, maybe three apparently veridical coin NDE OBE recollection stories. I vaguely remember the coin on the cupboard or wardrobe – but can’t find it again. And there is also the coin on a recovery room cardiac monitor (Dr John Lerma). I have no reason to question either apparently veridical recollection. But I do question the context of the scene of the crime. Did anyone question all the persons present at the scene of the crime, to find out if any of them knew of the presence of the coin? No, because no one has even considered that gathering such information could have any relevance. Are these coin’s secret? No. Do hospitals get rigorously cleaned? Yes. Were the coin’s hidden? we don’t know.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Can you please share the details of your childhood veridical OBE if you don’t mind. Had you flatlined? Were the veridical details confirmed by the hospital staff? Did you experience any other classic NDE features?
LikeLike
OK, I accept that if we allow for the possibility of your ideas being true, then the claim I make that these OBEs are not really any different from hidden (from everyone) targets studies, especially the iPad ones, is not true. However, given that while I accept elements of your ideas, I do not accept that these are the explanation. You believe they are, but to me, I believe the most obvious explanation…that the reporters observed these objects themselves, just as they claimed.
LikeLike
@Khushru Bacha
It wasn’t an NDE, but a veridical OBE during sleep, it’s written up at the end of this STE report I made on OBERF,
https://www.oberf.org/max_b_dream.htm
And there are other bits written on the sites given earlier with ideas, and answers to questions
I recorded a video with my Dad a few years before his death at the suggestion of a couple of people on the Skeptiko forum, who requested some further corroboration
https://youtu.be/kRgE18fV9ko
LikeLike
Good morning Ben, where can we find the old articles? Regards
LikeLike
@Khushru Bacha On my blog (further up these comments)
LikeLike
your blog post from 8th of october 2011 called “telepathy” is what you are referring to i guess.
what you have experienced had nothing to do with an OBE as experienced in a near death experience. these and what you wrote on your blog are two different things.
telepathy? maybe. OBE? no. the possible existence of telepathy eradicates the existence and credibility of OBEs? no.
“I now believe that claims of verified OBE’s are most likely telepathic experiences, and that the popular explanation of them as a disembodied event where your conciousness leaves your body is incorrect.”
a depressing conclusion…
you experienced something rare by conicidence that can not be explained probably ever – just like when people feel or see (in their dreams) loved ones in distress, dangerous situations or dying / after death, saying bye for example.
there are a few closed studies out there done by neuroscientists regarding this phenomena and so far all of them reached a dead end because there is nothing fruitful enough to explain this away but it has been noted and its existence acknowledged. at least we got that far.
i watched some back and forth where at the end the neuroscientists explained that trying to explain this phenomena is not a priority at the moment and that nobody gains anything from it so it is being put aside until further notice. they rather focus on the “big questions” as of now aka consciousness.
anways:
you were not dead or dying. you cannot compare this to something exclusively experienced by people being revived or having an empty EEG scan. nothing you say can change this.
when i was a child i had 2 pet fish i was obsessed with because they were beautiful. id watch them every evening before going to bed. and when i was asleep i had the most vivid dream.
i can still feel and recollect it as if it just happened a while ago. i was looking into my fish tank that stood in the living room and saw both my pet fish dead. one stuck to the filter of the pump that sucks in the water, the other one with the head entangled in a plant upside down in the corner of the tank.
i woke up, felt intense sad emotions and fear and walked into the living room to convince myself everything was okay. the fish were dead and in the exact spots i saw them in my dream and i was terrified. i felt like it was my fault for a long time.
i did not have an OBE just like you did not have one either. it was something that cannot be explained (as of now or maybe never which i expect much more). and many others had such a moment in their life too. and often it just happens once in a life of people and totally randomly.
you can try reduce lifes mysteries into one and the same thing so it fits into your ideas but it does not mean its right.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The fish thing is really quite something. Must have been terrifying. How do you make sense of it, especially as it was just a one off?
I agree that OBEs within NDEs are such a specific phenomena with a very rich supply of verified accounts, that it is extremely unlikely to be explained by telepathy.
LikeLike
Assuming the details of your fish experience are correct, that sounds very much like you obtained anomalous access to information that you should not of known about.
One way of thinking about this experience is from the perspective of a precognitive dream – which are commonly reported – where a person experiences an event shortly after waking-up which evokes strong feelings, and the details of the event match the content of a dream they recalled, prior to the wakeful event occurring.
This is a skeptical paper from Carolyn Watt that provides an good introduction to the subject:
https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/portalfiles/portal/20199092/WattJCS2015.pdf
It’s an interesting paper, in that the researchers got no hit’s on the emotional video target. But they did get a hit – which is not reported – but not on the target.
One subject (a lady) reported a dream immediately upon awaking, where the EEG electrodes they had applied to her scalp for the duration of the sleep study got stuck in her hair.
Interestingly, when the researchers came to remove the EEG electrodes from her scalp the next morning (following the end of the study) the EEG electrodes did get stuck in her hair, and a member of staff had to be sent into Edinburgh to buy some solvent to remove the electrode glue.
LikeLiked by 1 person
I think there are many different phenomena that defy explanation through natural means, and that point to facets of consciousness that go way beyond our understanding, but I do not think they are all down to one single mechanism. Experiences like these in which the person is still very much alive do indeed point to the idea of consciousness dipping into a pool of knowledge, but OBEs in NDEs seem radically different in their nature and in my view seem unlikely to be entirely explained by the ideas you support. It feels like in one experience, while you are still physically alive, you get an external snapshot of a shared knowledge, but in the other, when your consciousness is released from the body and is able to witness unique things.
LikeLike
@Ben
Difficult to explain specific issues with these OBE’s… i.e. Vicki Umipeg Noratuk’s colourless vs colour OBEs, and her experience of going in and out of her mouth. OBE from a person having brain surgery, where they are up in the corner of the room, and feel like they are perched on a stool. Toddler OBE’s who felt like adults, and knew things they shouldn’t know at the age. Lots of OBE’s where they recall what third parties were thinking privately. Plane crash in wilderness where pilot’s OBE recalls walking away from aircraft, but pilot actually found unconscious strapped to seat upside down, he never left aircraft. First person OBE’s vs Floating-above OBE’s. Not to mention distressing NDE’s. There are lot’s and lot’s of issues that are resolved by relocation of ones sense-of-self during the veridical OBE.
LikeLike
Thoughts on this: “Consciousness as a Physical Process Caused by the Organization of Energy in the Brain”?
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/psychology/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.02091/full
LikeLike
i’m unhappy i did read the whole article. Robert Pepperell isnt even a scientist. he’s from the school of arts, a painter and hobby philosoph. the whole article is just him rambling like we do here.
LikeLike
My ‘O’ My. This blog post thread is getting hot ~ Fire. I haven’t posted for a while, as I’ve been busy climbing Mount Everest. Either that or bingeing on Netflix, and pizza.
It’s popcorn time reading the replies. No time to post though***
Back soon. Paulie “>”
*** In law this is called a Pregnant Negative, due to the fact I’m writing this post*****
***** I think;-)
LikeLiked by 1 person
good morning ben,
regarding your question how i made sense of that fish thing: it is difficult. there are many non material explanations but due to experiencing it myself i reject materialistic explanations.
i am always open for skeptic takes and i am kind of a pessimist myself but there are instances just like that one when i know it’s out of “normal” explanations reach and cannot be explained with how our world is “supposed to function” according to materialism.
—
off topic rambling ahead:
it is odd how that experience alone isn’t enough for me to convince me fully of conciousness being able to survive outside our bodies or if not that then at least reach out outside our bodies to access outside information which is paranormal at least. that is why i am following parnias studies hoping for that one big hit.
i’m not a soft-skeptic by choice. it is more out of fear due to peer pressure and the fear of being disappointed. and the world, without proof, is telling you this can’t be possible and saying otherwise makes you less credible.
off topic rambling end.
—
this is not a very satisfying answer i guess but all i can offer are assumptions such as we are somehow connected to everyone but even stronger (!) to people / animals we love and that is why we sometimes can feel / see / dream when they are in distress, hurt, dying. i guess this is what happened to me.
i know of instances where people experienced such phenomena with people not important to them or with people they disliked or didn’t even know. but it seems this happens rarely compared to the same phenomena involving loved ones.
i think this is *something* on its own. just like an OBE during an NDE is something on its own. and then we also have instances of people dreaming of events about to happen (it can be trivial even. i do not mean the apocalypse or anything dramatic.) or while they are happening and this to me too is something on its own.
the world is definitely not just black and white and how everything works together is hyper difficult and complex. i just doubt we ever can unravel it especially if science today stays pure materliastic and refuses to do that one last leap our of fear about losing control. because what humans fear most is not being able to control things and leave it in the hands of the unknown.
LikeLiked by 2 people
Nice post, Megina. Indeedy, your post gives me food for thought. Paulie “><“
LikeLike
I identify myself a lot in what you said, even if I didn’t have such an unbelievable experience (though I did have smaller ones). I don’t know if we’ll ever be able to get a clean and pure “proof” of non-physical consciousness. Seeing how people treated the Bem studies on precognition (demanding such high levels of proof and statistical analysis compared to studies on other topics), there will probably always be questions and doubts. On a side note, have you tried the techniques that the intuitives often talk about (meditation, uses of means to tap into altered states of consciousness or perception, etc) to see if you could harness your gift? I honestly feel my left brain hemisphere is so strong I’m always “distanced” from reality and overly critical. Luckily, I share my life with someone who’s far better than me in the spiritual department!
LikeLike
would you like to share your smaller experiences? i am interested.
regarding your question… as a teenager and during a very short time as a young adult i tried different things because i was curious and it was THE (!) time of everyone everywhere trying out meditation, lucid dreaming, “contacting spirits”, taking pictures at spooky places and trying out audio recordings and much much more (1990 – early 2000s) but nothing ever came of it. i bet most of you remember that time.
i decided that if there is something odd it will find me on its own, haha. i also decided to leave the search to people who got the time, money and patience. like parnia for example.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you a ton for sharing your experiences. It was an interesting read. And it is true, it is always difficult for people to believe in what others say because sadly there are many people out there spreading lies for attention or the gain of money. You’d think “why would they lie in that matter?” but humans can be very creative. But if it helps you any, i think what you experienced is honest. The story about your wife with you getting caught in the tickle crossfire sounded absolutely genue to me. Generally I find the stories of people suddenly being struck by the wisdom of someones passing the most genue in experiences. Like people waking up at night feeling the urge to call their grandmother and finding out she passed a few minutes before or a few hours before. Or the like.
LikeLike
Hi Megina,
In response to what you said about someone waking up in the middle of the night feeling that a loved one has passed away which then turns out to be true.
When my mother was alive, on two occasions I had vivid dreams that she passed away in my arms. I had woken up scared and wanted to call her to find out but then waited till morning. Those dreams turned to be false on both occasions.
Years later she passed away. A few days after she passed, I had a very vivid dream where she came and spoke to me, looked healthy and alive in the dream and said she was fine and went away. I woke up calling out to her and realised it was a dream. I believe that was a visitation by her because the dream was as good as real. But then there is that slight nagging doubt that if the earlier two bad dreams, which were equally vivid, had turned out to be false, why should I believe this good dream to be true.
In your case, your vivid dream about the fishes turned out to be true. In my case my vivid dream about my mother passing away turned out to be false. So don’t know what to make of dreams.
LikeLike
Megina,
your thoughts really resonate with me. I too feel like I need experimental results to solidify my belief in the idea that OBEs are something real. Anecdotes don’t really do it for me. I do think that people in this community are too willing to jump on the band wagon when really I think the experimental evidence has been weak. I expect there will be quite a few people that disagree with me. I believe Carl Sagan when he said extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
LikeLiked by 1 person
The experimental evidence either way is non existent. However, anecdotal evidence from serious health care professionals, as well as 2 OBEs verified within the setting of scientific studies, albeit not confirmed by the scientific method, represent strong evidence. then there’s my Dad…
LikeLiked by 1 person
What would be a convincing proof though? In pure scientific terms, it would be something unfalsifiable that provides consistent hits and is replicable. If Parnia gets a hit, I wonder if some people will claim he made it up. If it’s impossible to fake because it’s robustly blinded to him (hidden iPad, blinded location and randomized numbers or pictures), I wonder how we would expect someone who has no clue he’s in an experiment to focus on this sort of target. We know from attention studies people can literally miss gorillas playing basketball when they’re focused on some other tasks. I think we should first focus on something that is frequently reported by patients (like procedures or clothing) and add something unusual there to see if it’s reported. Skeptics could easily replicate it too if they want.
LikeLiked by 1 person
#Paul. You wrote:
>>>If Parnia gets a hit, I wonder if some people will claim he made it up<<<
>>>Skeptics could easily replicate it too if they want<<<
Yes, both are correct. It’s part of their landscape. It’s just their day stretching its limbs.
#Ben. The forum still doesn’t have a ‘secure connection’. Come on young man. Get down to action, and get it sorted will yus. It will only take 5 mintes.
Later’s innit! 👋💬
Paulie Out “¬
LikeLike
Sorry mate, currently in the final stages of our move to NZ so a bit distracted. Please remind me how to do it again? Will get on to it today 🙂
LikeLike
I totally couldn’t see the gorilla. Bonkers!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Hi Ben,
in your earlier post, you said 2 OBEs verified within the settings of scientific studies represent strong evidence. Which 2 OBEs are you referring to?
LikeLiked by 1 person
AWARE I and the Van Lommel false teeth. Both were verified OBEs that occurred in prospective studies set up to look into NDEs. They were not scientifically verified though since they did not observe any hidden targets.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Domain is fine, it has a valid SSL certificate, and forces connections to https
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thanks Max, it is only PaulB who has said anything so not sure what to do. If it is working fine for everyone else I may just leave it for now. I am going to be uploading some videos I am making soon, so will have a good look then.
LikeLike
Paul,
That’s a fair question I think and I suspect that after a hit was reported a good amount of scientists would still refuse to believe the results. I think that’s okay. There is always room for mistakes. The LK99 superconductor findings from couple years ago come to mind. If you recall a team claimed that LK99 was a superconductor and a lot of people were rightly skeptical. Subsequent investigations failed to show room temperature superconducting properties. If we do get a hit people will probably criticize the experimental procedure or maybe even question the integrity of some of the investigators. But subsequent hits will be found if this is indeed a real phenomenon. It may be at a glacial pace but I believe the truth will prevail whatever that may be. It took nearly half a century for the higgs boson to be observed.
LikeLiked by 1 person
@Max_B, id like to know out of curiosity, are you a materalist or do you believe there to be more? an afterlife, a soul, whatever? i did not manage to read that out of your words so far.
LikeLike
I grew up in the same era, I know what you are talking about! The only thing that worked for me was self hypnosis. I hate surrendering myself to someone else or a substance, I get super resistant lol. Every intuitive person tells me I’m closed as an oyster. I feel my heart is opened but my head is 97% left hemisphere based lol
The book “The awakened brain” summaries well how I viewed the world as a kid, a view I struggled to maintain entering adulthood (I’m working on it!). I did felt “protected by something bigger than me” the day I basically ran over a 4-5-year-old on a bike. It would be long to explain in details (plus my english is rusty lol), but I was depressed at the time, was running late to work and was driving too fast. This tiny kid was biking with her siblings on her little bike on the side of the street. As I was approaching, she lost control of her bike and fell at an angle, basically crashing right in front of my car. I hit the brakes super hard. Her handlebar hit my bumper (I heard the sound and saw the mark afterwards) and she miraculously got perfectly redirected the other way, not even falling off her bike in the process. I was speechless. She was understandably crying from fear. Everyone in the park nearby was looking at me. I asked if everything was ok, the siblings said yes and I slowly left. It was surreal enough that a part of me wondered for a time if my brain reconstructed all this as a coping mechanism and I actually killed a child (I checked the news and all for a few weeks lol). I say it’s a small experience because I can’t really assess the true odds of this happening. It’s probably damn near 0 though lol.
As for my other experiences, they are mostly related to my wife who is some kind of witch lol. Here is one example. She was very close to her only grandma (who I unfortunately only met when she already had Alzheimer’s). Before her disease, she apparently was a jokster and would jokingly say that after her passing she would come back and tickle my wife’s toes at night. A few months after her grandma’s death, my wife was having a tough bout of grief. She secretly asked her grandma for a clear sign she’s still around. She specified she did not want the tickles because it would freak her out. I knew nothing about all this. That very night, my wife fell asleep in our son’s bed while putting him to bed. She was woken up in the middle of the night by the voice of a woman saying her name, clear as day. She was freaked out. Meanwhile, as I was laying in bed earlier that very same night thinking about my day, I felt something tickle my foot. I was literally freaked out to the point I switched the lights back on and searched the room to see if my cat had sneaked in. I fell alseep hidden under the blanket like a kid that night lol. Later on that same night, a huge glass terrarium globe fell from a desk which freaked out both my dog and cat. I woke up to my dog scratching like crazy to get in the room, which she never does. No idea how that 15-pound thing fell from a stable desk, all this without breaking. My cat weighs 5 pounds and is ultra small… The next morning my wife told me about her experience and I told her about mine. I remain skeptic to this day just like you even though rational explanations don’t satisfy me either (neither my wife nor me ever had REM intrusions or other similar experiences ; it all happened the same night and I knew nothing about my wife’s wish). I had many other smaller signs myself afterwards (like electronics coming back from the dead in weird ways), always when my wife secretly ask for a sign for me because I was down after my mom’s passing.
In sum, I’m always stuck with the following paradox/dilemma : odds of this happening within the known laws of physics/biology/psychology are near zero, but yet it arrived so I can’t claim there were non-existant. That’s why I fear that even with a hit, we’ll never have a perfect scenario where we can rule out everything.
On a side note, I realize while proof reading my stories that I’d probably be somewhat critical if I read them online. This whole process requires a lot of trust in others’ testimonies haha. On a side note, seeing all the foul play in my field of social science research makes me doubtful even of the scientific process at times.
Good night!
LikeLiked by 1 person
Good morning Paul. What a great post. One of the most interesting posts I’ve read on the forum. I like. A lot.
Paulie Out “¬.
PS. I’ll be Paulie, and you be Paul. It saves any confusion 😉
LikeLike
Theres a lot of podcasts focusing on near death experences and similar phenomenon. I just did an interview for the Seeking I podcast. Theres also Liz Entin podcast called What the F just happened, another is Beyond with Heather Tesch and Unraveling the universe podcast.
LikeLike
Hello Pablo,
“I think we should first focus on something that is frequently reported by patients (like procedures or clothing) and add something unusual there to see if it’s reported. Skeptics could easily replicate it too if they want.”
Wearing a face mask with a funny face on it or colourful gloves for 1 person only that wont be seen before or after the surgery would be a starter. or maybe even a silly hat that does not bother during surgery.
During an OBE the least thing I would look to are cards (I’d think it is a flyer, books / documents of staff, something regular, even if it had a symbol on it, i’d focus on something more curious) or technical devices such as tablets and so on (because i’d assume it is part of the set there…) IDK why it is so hard for scientists to be more “in your face” because this would not make anything “less” credible.
During OBEs people always have seen unusual things happening like colourful shoelaces, funny movements by surgeons, this, that but scientists think they need to use a method that blends in with the daily norm of our lives? like walking down a street to the store and somewhere next to all the rubble on the floor there is a flyer with a symbol on it – nobody of us would even bat an eye… we’d walk by.
LikeLike
Also, dear Paul, I forgot to answer one thing:
“What would be a convincing proof though?”
I’d be satisfied with many being known as gone, something happening in this time which they could not have heard or seen, being revived and telling the world what they heard / saw in that time which should be absolutely impossible. This should be proof enough. But sadly all we ever get are rare hits, smoking guns or people focusing on separate things, never the same (dentures, shoe laces) that’s why I said earlier they should wear more funky clothes patients never get to see before or after. This would make things so much more easy.
Or is that silly?
LikeLike
Dear Ben,
“AWARE I and the Van Lommel false teeth. Both were verified OBEs that occurred in prospective studies set up to look into NDEs. They were not scientifically verified though since they did not observe any hidden targets.”
If at some point we finally have enough hits that all show the same pattern again and again we do not need scientists to tell us if this is okay to be “verified” or not. Just like an apple fell to the ground before a scientist verified physics to be a true. If something just happens by nature and we all see and wittness it we don’t need a group of people to tell us “we verify this”.
Greetings, Meggy
LikeLiked by 1 person
+ i mean like a new study with many, many patients and a new technique even if it takes a few years to collect the data. the last decades taught science everything they should avoid to not cause any more mistakes by collecting this data… like not having all rooms prepared for example – somehow patients always end up in the wrong rooms where there is no data being collected. but besides of me rambling now imagine if thanks to this study we finally have many and multiple people seeing the same things during an OBE or (also very importang) hear the same things during an OBE which they should not because it only plays when the patients is “gone”.
but it would cost money i guess and people don’t like losing money.
but anyways, Ben, do you think one day we maybe get there? it feels like right now everything is still stuck in tiny baby shoes. or do you think we don’t be alive anymore to finally see science take this pretty much simple leap and do things seriously regarding this matter?
LikeLike
We do have that already with the hundreds of OBEs that have occurred in emergency rooms or ICUs and been verified by HCPs.
LikeLike
Dear Ben,
Just curious to understand as to why you have chose to mention these two OBEs (Aware1 and False teeth) over others like Pam Reynolds or Dr Lloyd Rudy’s patient.
LikeLike
Because they were in a study looking at NDEs.
LikeLike
ok
LikeLike
i’d prefer one proper large study with multiple hits in a controlled vicinity over 1000+ testimonies scattered across all over the world that invite misunderstandings and “he said she said” stories of people that weren’t even dying just cutting their finger on a paper and fainting.
LikeLike
I think we would all prefer that.
LikeLike
https://clinicaltrials.med.nyu.edu/clinicaltrial/2732/children-s-awareness-long-term/
LikeLike
is this about real NDEs or just kids falling unconcious without really dying or in a death situation?
LikeLiked by 1 person
https://www.hra.nhs.uk/planning-and-improving-research/application-summaries/research-summaries/aware-in-picu/
LikeLike
I believe children have been shown to have NDE/OBE recollections more often than adults though I don’t recall how large this difference was. Thank you for sharing.
LikeLike
Dr. Melvin Morse studied children’s NDES,in the 80s and 90s. His book Closer to the Light and Transformed by the Light are good reads
LikeLike
I enjoyed watching your interview on the Seeking I podcast. I also was on Seeking I. Mine was episode 91
LikeLike
I will have to have look!
LikeLike