Happy Christmas – this time next year Rodney
I wish all of those who visit this site and their friends and family a very Happy Christmas. Unfortunately this year did not yield the much hoped for scientifically verified OBE, but we still live in hope – like Rodney and Del Boy Trotter (I am sure I have used this analogy before, but it does feel like Groundhog Day following research into NDEs at the moment!). Will AWARE II or the DHCA or even Charlotte Marshall’s study provide the breakthrough, or will we all have to wait till we die to prove OBEs are real?!
As a special Christmas present to you I am making the ebook versions of NDE, Did Jesus Die For Nothing and Unholy Spirit Part 1 free until the end of Boxing Day. Also the paperback versions will be increasing in price in the New Year as I want to actually make a little profit from them (my Royalties are currently $0.20 a copy at the moment!).
Can I ask a small favour? If you read one of my books and enjoyed it, then please post a review on the site you bought it from. To access each of my books click on the image below to my personal website and click on the book.
AwareofAware 
I did read your book “Did Jesus die for Nothing” but I found that many of the questions you pose can be answered to some extent in books I’ve read about the nature of consciousness.
I suppose it depends on whether you believe that people like Robert A Monroe, who founded The Monroe Institute, were genuine or not? He was studied in various university laboratories so was taken seriously. He “explored” various “dimensions” in non-physical “bodies” and found out quite a lot of interesting things. He wrote a trilogy which are worth reading in order. One of the graduates of his courses, Bruce Moen, wrote about his own experiences in another series of books and managed to travel “further”. And Rosalind A McKnight’s book “Cosmic Journeys” is another worth reading as she was one of the first people that Monroe had “exploring” and as she is a theology graduate, her accounts might be interesting to you.
Then there are the accounts of “life between lives” that psychologist Michael Newton published, which touches on similar themes.
And Remote Viewing is another phenomenon that adds more to the subject of the “Afterlife”. Robert Monroe was also involved with those people (Skip Atwater, Joe MacMoneagle etc) as there is an overlap there.
I think that, having been interested in this sort of thing for many decades, and having found a “common thread” in many of these phenomena, it coloured my views about your book, unfortunately!
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Thanks for reading it. I admit that my book is not going to be everyone’s taste, and that there is evidence that will contradict my position. However, that evidence is far from conclusive, which is my whole point in the book…you are free to choose which understanding of reality you believe in.
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I would be interested in your take on the books I mentioned, although it’s a long read to get through them all! But I think they’re very worthwhile if you get the chance. 🙂
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Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays everyone
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Happy Christmas
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happy holidays everyone. Thank you Ben for keeping this blog going.
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My pleasure, thanks for coming to it!
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Happy Christmas.Yes,we hope.And the dawn will come.
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I thought this was an interesting talk
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Looks good.
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I thought the Maria’s Shoe story has been debunked and shown to be fraudulent?
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I read a debunking of the debunk.
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Alright, very interesting.
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I think one of the most criticisms I heard is that no one can find this healthcare professional who gave an account of this story but I found some videos of a person that claims to be her. This is the healthcare professional, not Maria (the patient that had the OBE).
Interestingly there was another OBE also about a shoe. For a long time I got the two mixed up thinking they were one and the same.
Ultimately until there are *several* OBEs reported under experimental conditions, these types of arguments will always devolve to speculation and he-said v she-said.
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It is now.
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Not sure if my previous post was registered but here’s a better another link to the Maria story
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3ASmyyVgQY
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Very good video
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I read a debunking of the debunk and a debunking of that debunk. Rinse and repeat.
Happy New Year Y’All.
Paul
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What is your opinion about this?
They attend to many topics.
https://infidels.org/library/modern/keith-augustine-hndes/#maria
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Keith Augustine has issues with personal survival not impersonal survival
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Hey Ben / Orson!
I just tried posting a comment with a link.
Did it just need time to be approved or was there a mistake and it got deleted?
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Happy New Year
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Orson,
Thank you for taking the time to write your book. Additionally, for the time, dedication, and effort that you put into your blog. It provides much insight , support and resources , as well as being a cool community of people who comment and post that you often see circulating around similar websites, forums or blogs .
I did put a five star review for your book, that I just finished yesterday , via kindle . I did not write a review but I did click on 5 stars .
I am 44. Almost anyway . I think in my entire life I’ve only written two authors . One , a small author; when coming across her website and another , Bernardo Kastrup. And I’ve read , listened to; watched , literally hundreds and hundreds of book, articles , podcasts , etc . So for whatever reason, I decided to write to u as well.
I do not draw the same conclusions u do, in ur latest book, but I respect ur position. It’s funny, cuz I downloaded this app called glorify and for the first time ever , listened to every Sunday message from a non denominational Christian church all year as well, and follow Jesus . So this isn’t an anti Christian message . It’s random thoughts and feelings expressed from a guy who has existentially suffered for almost my whole life trying to figure this stuff out . That app and those sermons or whatever u call them, from my weekly online listening , seemed to create more hope and happiness and belief / feeling in a loving God who “has my back,” so to speak.
When reading ur book, it brings me great anxiety . Makes me doubt again. Cuz I literally cannot reconcile a loving God With a god who would either send to hell or eliminate our souls .
I love you if…..
Literally the complete opposite of unconditional love.
That’s like a dad saying he won’t accept his kid cuz his kid won’t accept him. That’s backwards as hell.
U make it sound that becuz u had an experience that ur interpretation must be true . Others , r equally convinced and would bet their kids lives on it. Doesn’t make one more real or true than the other .
I tell people …
When one has a narrative in their mind and something happens in their lives , they will unknowingly “cherry pick” things to validate that narrative .
For example ..
Picture a guy in college, depressed, low self worth. Gets exam back. Gets an “F.” Already doesn’t think good of himself so after seeing his grade; says “see; I’m so stupid ; I should just drop out.”
Same scenario but now the person isn’t depressed but a narcissist. He gets an “F.” But instead of thinking he is dumb and should drop out , he thinks the teacher sucks and can’t teach good.
Same experience . Different interpretation. U had prior beliefs ; then had an experience , validating ur beliefs .
Others have their version of that, and to them, confirms it for them.
Odd to me .. no disrespect ..
How on one hand , u seem very scientifically minded but then on another , think in like “archaic” ways .. like creatures with demon like bodies who eat us in the afterlife over and over and angels who fell from heaven .
It sounds very artsy, or fairy tail ish. Kid like .
Too “human” sounding .
What if we r just beingness. Consciousness. Energy. Formless . Beyond understanding . Picture weird shit , like quantum mechanics. I don’t know
And u make it sound just cuz the Bible says it, it must be true . What about all the stuff in the Bible we know is not and never was scientifically true . Can’t go both ways .
I’m sorry for the following . Triggering warning but want to drill home my point but if u have trauma , avoid reading :
Picture this ..
An innocent child , repeatedly molested over many years by a relative , who goes on to self harm, develop deep psych issues , and one day after being beaten by his parent , accidentally kills himself when self harming but not to die but to relieve pain. But he self harms too deep or bad and dies .
He goes to Hell? His soul is destroyed ?
The creator of heaven and earth who literally created anything and everything from the beginning , couldn’t devise or come up with a better plan than that?
Does that sound like a loving God?
And some Bible believers would say god created that person fully knowing they would never go to heaven .
So why should we on earth even care then!?
And with all due respect , I don’t know what ur struggles are . But imagine being someone who is Gay and told their whole lives if they don’t change ; they r basically fucked ? Did u choose to like women ? Or was it just ur natural interest and desire ? There r wars and starvation but god spends time caring about two dudes having sex ?
If Jesus would send 90 percent of people to either Hell or eliminate them .. who wants part of god ? Sounds like the worst kind of dictator one could imagine .
I think one should follow Jesus for the love and compassion and for all he taught about how to treat people and all that. Not out of fear of going to hell or whatever .
Anyways , I’m sorry if I came across in any way disrespectful, that was not my intention.
Also one last personal note that I rarely share but felt compelled to. When my grandma died , whom I was very close with, I didn’t even know she died at the time and it was unexpected.. I had an experience and later confirmed she had passed away when I had this experience from a heart attack .
I knew she came to see me , check in on me , she was with a guide of some sort , wiser, loving , knowledgeable, allowing her to check in on me as she left , basically, and I got the feeling she was transitioning or moving on but checking in on me to make sure I was okay and I got the feeling I’d always be okay and I’d see her again, in time and she was off, on her way. Call it a Shared NDE if u want but I am 100 percent certain of what I experienced and of my interpretation of it . It was beyond words and felt absolute truth and I swear on my kids life .
So that doesn’t reconcile with ur experience .. so urs is right and true and mine is somehow false or wrong or even a trick of the devil cuz it doesn’t align with a specific interpretation?
And maybe many elders don’t experience NDE’s or remember them for whatever reason but when u look at other afterlife evidence , many In hospice or whatever have death bed visions or nearing death awareness. They seem to be going somewhere . And what if beyond that boundary; isn’t a “higher heaven,” but a more melting or “oneness,”.. who knows .
Also, u mention those who don’t hear of Jesus , like in a literal sense; r “spared,” but it’s rare . Cuz of tech, etc and global awareness of who Jesus was , etc.
Well that’s a very literal interpretation. What of those who can’t know Jesus? Like my child with severe Autism? Is she one of the 90 percent?
Also, Orson, people have also experienced elves , and living people in their NdE’s. I remember some kid even experienced his favorite rapper , kid cudi or something like that, who was alive ! So just cuz Howard storm saw hell , and the Bible mentions hell, no. Things mention elves and shit and so does someone’s NDE; doesn’t make elves real.
Also what of Nancy Evan’s Bush’s interpretation of distressing NDE’s and I imagine u would disagree with Kenneth rings latest book about what we can learn and how we can live with what we have learned ?
I enjoyed the book and the blog , much respect to u and ur hard work!
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Hi,
Thank you for the review and your thoughtful, and respectfully expressed objections to the position I propose in the book.
As you know, I have two books, one is more generalised and for non christians, the other is for Christians or those interested in Jesus.
Firstly…don’t shoot the messenger!
I understand why you say what you do, and for many years I thought the same, however, ultimately I have to consider what Jesus is reported to say in the Bible. I have decided after years of experience of walking with Jesus that I must trust in that, and he is extremely clear…most will perish. You and most other people, say this is unjust, and I understand why, but Jesus gives dozens of parables to show that God gives us every chance to come to him, and if we do he will open his arms widely and accept us just as we are. For example the parable of the prodigal son. The son chose to come back and despite squandering his inheritance and behaving badly, the father gave him a place of honour when he returned.
The counter to that is the story of another banquet in which a ruler invites people, but they say they are too busy etc, so he invites everyone, and some come. Once the banquet starts, those who previously said they were busy come knocking and said they wanted to come now, but it was too late.
In my book, I admit that the evidence is finely balanced so you can choose almost any position on this and feel intellectually comfortable. I therefore cannot assert my position is correct, but because of my faith, I believe it is and am called to share that position – hence my book.
You give examples of situations in which it is not fair that someone due to their circumstances does not come to God, but I can show you people who under exactly the same circumstances did. They both chose.
I ultimately believe that God is fair and just, and that he allows us to choose our destinies…it’s not like there’s no warnings. Every religion warns of bad outcomes for some. The position I take is supported by what Jesus is reported to have said, and somewhat by some (selected) evidence from NDEs. I could be wrong, but if I am, then we all make it anyway, so no harm done, but if I’m right, it is absolutely vital that I said these things and people heard and followed Jesus. It is my responsibility, given my knowledge and experience, to promote this position…to do otherwise would be wrong.
I hope you understand that, and please appreciate my point that I am just the messenger!
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What an interesting post azredrock. I could address some of your issues but at this time of the morning I need a coffee and 20 minutes to ‘come to’.
For that reason I’ll let ‘Ben’ answer your post. HNY my friend.
Paul
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Please feel free to add your answers. I totally understand azredrock’s position, and empathise with it, whilst at the same feeling that I am compelled to defend the position I take. But I admit, I am selecting evidence that supports that position, and it is entirely plausible to select different evidence and take a different position…but they can’t all be right!
I cannot think of a more important discussion.
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I know hell is not where God would like us to go, but where we go because we refuse to go to follow Him. But what baffles me is why God would permit human suffering of any kind if He loves us so much. The fact that we have free will about what path we take in life is understandable. But that doesn’t apply, for instance, to natural disasters that weren’t created by humanity. Why does God allow this to happen when millions of young innocent children die, often in suffering and pain? Why did God permit Hitler and Stalin to be born knowing that millions of people would be killed and be oppressed by these men?
If you need to believe in Jesus to be saved, what happens to people who follow another religion or have never heard of God or Jesus? The Sentinelese people are one such example. They know nothing about Christ through no fault of their own – are they also doomed to spend forever in hell?
I’m just scratching the surface with this one. To me, this is an oxymoron that doesn’t make sense.
For the record, I think God is real but the questions I express above are questions that no one has ever given me an answer to. I don’t believe anyone ever will.
Paul
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On the subject of those who never heard of Jesus, he does have answers for them…in my book 🙂 On suffering, we need to remember that all of existence is an illusion, both good and bad things, and it is how we experience and respond to them that is the ultimate reality. When looked at from this perspective it is possible to understand suffering as better than having everything easy. Personally, i will take my chances with the latter though 🙂
As for Hell. WE KNOW IT IS REAL FROM NDEs. It is not a place of God’s making, but of our own. A place where he is absent because we rejected him.
On that latter point, I am of the personal view that you really must reject Jesus, not just not believe in him, to end up not experiencing all that God has planned for us. unfortunately that does mean a lot people in the West may not have the best eternity awaiting them…IF JESUS WAS RIGHT.
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OK, Ben. I’m unable to reply to your comments – there’s no ‘reply’ to hit.
I hear what you are saying and will reply tomorrow when I am more alert (I was again at 4.30 am and more switched early morning. That’s when I have had a strong coffee of course.
Just one thing. Check your reply to me for a typo. I think you meant ‘accept Jesus’ not ‘reject’ him. Don’t worry it happens to the best of us. The funniest one was a friend on FB who posted she had locked herself out and had to call a locksmith. Her auto-correct replaced the word ‘locked’ with she had….OK, I’ll leave it to your imagination 😉
Paul
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Actually I did mean reject. the sentence isn’t very clear. My personal interpretation of the warnings that Jesus gives are for those who actively reject him. If you’ve never encountered him, you haven’t rejected him, so things are different. I talk about this in my book and use what he says in the gospel about this. Those who have encountered him and rejected him or taken his words lightly are the ones he suggests will not have a great eternal future.
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Hi,
I have a question that troubles me.
If there is even a chance that at least one person will reject Jesus and end up in eternal torment in hell, why didn’t a loving God stop humanity from continuing to exist? At least during the time of the Great Flood?
Why did God allow people to continue multiplying and reproducing, knowing that the majority of them would ultimately choose darkness and end up in eternal torment?
Also, if there is even the slightest chance that our children might reject Jesus, perhaps we shouldn’t have children at all? That’s such a huge risk. What could be more terrifying than eternal suffering in hell?
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No one knows the answers to these questions. All I know is that my personal experience of this being is perfect, so I trust that the answers will be perfect – both good and just.
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What happens to a person open to belief in Jesus, but is unsure of what to believe?
What do you mean by open to Jesus? Do you mean having faith or just being open the possibility and not having a closed mind.
Personally, I’d like to believe there is a loving God and Jesus was real, but all I’ve experienced suggests otherwise. There are illnesses that prevent people from being active participants in taking the actions Jesus says we should. Are they dammed for no fault of their own?
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Hey guys, Happy New Year!
Just a quick question, what is your opinion on the website named “Internet Infidels, Secular Web”?
Are they too biased or do they have a point?
I have posted their link before in this post talking about Maria’s Shoe.
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The answer to your question is:
Computing
Computing
Computing
The computer says – biased.
HNY Paul
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Again it’s kind of a he-said she-said type of scenario. One side says it’s easy to see the shoe from the ground the other says it’s not. Without being there and seeing it yourself it’s difficult to say who is right. I personally would find it odd for anyone to be talking about this shoe which is supposedly how Maria would have learned of it according to this link. Even more so discuss the details of the shoe. Regardless of whoever is right it’s a strange occurrence.
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Also I think a lot of people get hung up on this one, but there are many many others by very respected doctors.
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Not looked at it. Will have a look later.
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Just look at Sheldrake’s studies on Jaytee… no one want’s to go near it… Wiseman, the German TV company, and Sheldrake all got the same results… and Wiseman never want’s to talk about it again… where were all the scientists clamoring to test the subjects Pam/Jaytee.
After several decades, there are, and have been zero studies measuring the visual accuracy of the recalled NDE OBE in these medical settings… it’s the same rubbish as Jaytee… no one want’s to go near it.
Instead, people just argue and argue, and never resolve anything. Borjigin’s first study on rodents was the most amazing thing to happen… she got so much shit for it… you will never see it’s like again… no one want’s to go near it.
It’s neither that people have literally left their body, nor that the brain is totally isolated.
It’s that we are all connected… and construct our ‘Experience’ together…
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I understand that one and will pitch my tent next to yours concerning that. I now know what you meant by reject.
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I found this on Reddit and the answer from “WOLFXXXXX” looks interesting in my opinion.
What do you guys say?
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Although I think many of us are disappointed that there was no hit I do think that the one OBE we got from the aware study is pretty interesting. In that OBE a person was able to identify the individual that was operating on him. This was despite a surgical drape being placed that would have supposedly prevented the patient from seeing the person performing the operation. The case was talked about in erasing death I think but maybe it was in lucid dying. I’m a bit surprised the case isn’t discussed more. In any case identifying the targets would be the gold standard.
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The truth is that while this happened in a clinical study, it is not so different from the hundreds of others…all of which are equally compelling.
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It would be interesting to mount cameras during the medical procedures to try to ascertain how much the patient could have learned from any sort of visual or audio cues but I’m guessing that might break some ethical guidelines.
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It was an interesting case! That said, if you use hidden secret targets in these sorts of studies, the targets will never be seen. Which is exactly what I would expect.
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Dr. Ben,
Looks like Greyson’s department is looking for an NDE-focused research professor. Any interest in this job (I know you have a PhD) 😉 Might have to teach some pesky undergrads though.
Bonner-Lowry Professor and Research Director of the Division of Perceptual Studies (DOPS) – HigherEdJobs
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Have no intention of ever moving to the US!
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Hey guys! I found this older article about lucid dreaming and NDEs, what are your thoughts about this? Also have you ever heard of Michael Raduga? And once you look him up, what are your thoughts about him?
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna46760759#amp_tf=Von%20%251%24s&aoh=17360606576557&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nbcnews.com%2Fid%2Fwbna46760759
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I think various explanations have been offered for various aspects of NDE experiences. I doubt that the dreamers report the dreams feeling realer than real like so many NDE experiences. Do they see a life review? Also it’s kind of difficult to compare the quality of the two. The best you could do is try to have a person that had both experiences compare them. Still this explanation of lucid dreaming sounds like it may be a better explanation than most of the others I heard.
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I think it is highly flawed research with extremely spurious and implausible conclusions drawn. The fact they say that these subjects can be induced to dream something like an NDE, means that NDEs “MUST not be real”, is intellectual hogwash. May yes, MUST, no. They give away their extreme materialist bias.
As for the experiment, it is hard to assess without seeing a peer reviewed journal, but there seems to be no objective measures put in place to determine what the subjects actually experienced. It seems this is the experiment:
1. Recruit some people who claim to have lucid dreams.
2. tell them to dream the kind of things that happened in an NDE.
3. A few come back and say that they did.
There is no way of actually testing whether the subjects are being truthful. Moreover, the whole thing is entirely open to suggestive outcomes.
Appalling research. Embarrassing in fact.
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Hello, I am a person who likes to study NDEs (like most people here). Recently I have come across an article/blog made by Woerlee called neardth.com. I believe most people here know who Woerlee is due to his rebuttal’s towards Pam Reynolds NDE. However I haven’t seen many people directly address some of his points from the “Pam Reynolds NDE” and “Pam Reynolds Interview” section. Some have talked about it on the Near Death Experience Subbreddit, but it sometimes feels like allot of individuals don’t actually address some of his claims (mainly regarding the timelapse and inconsistencies in her OBE/NDE). Instead some call him a “fraud”, “liar” or that he has been debunked.
Of course some claims have been addressed but a few others haven’t. I am aware of certain older responses (ranging from Bruce Greyson, Sabom, Holden and a few others) and also Woerlee’s rejoinder of response towards those objections (as well as Chris Carters response to Woerlee’s rejoinder of responses). However certain details or objections seem to have been ignored (as far as I’m aware).
Personally I am skeptical of his Anesthesia Awareness argument along with a few other objections. But I don’t want try and filter out and or ignore his arguments (as it feels like there are major truths in his argument). I want to try and confront these arguments directly without the need to rely on others statements (by “others statements” I am referring to those who claim x or y without linking valid or any sources, and or address newer criticisms).
So I personally have had a hard time understanding what is true and what is false. And one thing which I absolutely hate is when people either fall for misinformation, or use it as a source. Now for the record, I am not stating that Woerlee is most certainly wrong or right, he could very well be both (and he most likely is to some regards). I really just want to be able to be sure that this case isn’t as dubious as some make it out to be. I am aware that some things are unfortunately hard to answer regarding this case (due to its age, and the fact that some like Pam have passed away while others may have forgotten certain details). I am also aware that some have stated that some of Woerlee’s claims do not add up to Dr Spetzler’s original report (allegedly). However as stated before, I am unsure of how true most of these claims are.
My reasoning in making this comment is: I just want individuals such as myself, (who sometimes have a hard time making sense of certain cases such as this one) be able to get a better understanding of all perspectives and “facts” of this case. We have come to a day and age where misinformation is rampant across the internet. And no matter what stance someone may have when it comes to NDEs, I believe that most of us can agree that NDEs can provide all sides with valuable information. And as I have stated before, I am aware that Woerlee could in the end be right, but he could also be wrong.
So if someone wouldn’t mind going in depth and addressing most of his claims/arguments against the case, I would be very grateful.
I apologies in advance if a few parts of this comment are a bit messy, I am quite young and I’m trying to be as unbiased as possible.
Thanks in regards : D
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Forgot to include Keith Augustine and his response to objections.
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I think you’re asking for a bit much. Ultimately you have to look at both sides and decide for yourself who is right/wrong on what issue. If you rely on someone else you’re going to get their filtered bias.
Personally I dislike it when either side uses the term debunk the vast majority of the time the term is used. It suggests that the issue has been resolved beyond reasonable doubt and in most cases it hasn’t. Most people just have a speculation which could be right or wrong but is one of many ways to interpret the data. This is nearly impossible to do and it’s likely to only get harder to do with the passage of time as you suggested. In the case of Pam Reynolds the people who were witnesses will begin to pass away and people’s recollection of events is likely to get less accurate. If this case hasn’t been resolved by now then it likely never will. This is why the AWARE results are so important.
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I think using the term debunk is appropriate when referring to specific pieces of evidence or theories. For instance, the widely propagated claim that the rat and coma patient studies show that NDEs are the result of brain activity around the time of death is a claim or theory that can be debunked as the data does not support that. However, it is not entirely possible to 100% debunk the more generalised theory that NDEs may be the result of brain activity as we do not have “scientifically verified” evidence that people are conscious when their brains are inactive…although we have ample empirical evidence to “debunk” this theory.
I am happy for you to debunk my claims about debunking 🙂
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I see, I was kind of expecting a similar answer to this (due to the fact that yes, it mainly relies on old reports and statements, some of which have been found to be incorrect). But thanks, I really do appreciate it. May I also ask what you believe the strongest veridcal case or cases are according to what we know?
As of now I am personally trying to find veridical cases ranging from 2020-2025. Mainly due to the fact that it is hard to really verify older cases. I am aware that if there are any, they won’t provide any specifc proof to any topic (evidence is another thing depending on the degree of verification and details). I mainly just wan’t to know if there are any credible ones out there which are not too old. Sorry if this too is also hard to answer.
I am currently going through a time where I am trying to evaluate the current evidence/material, which has made me a bit anxious. Mainly due to certain research articles contradicting older or newer ones and a few other reasons. But I don’t want to go into too much detail (as I have a habit of doing that unfortunately/fortunately, depends on perspective) so I will end the comment here. Thanks again and have a lovely year!
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Hello Ben,
It’s nice to hear from you in the new year. I hope you are doing well.
I was mostly thinking in terms of individual NDE cases. I see how a case (e.g. Pam Reynolds) has been “debunked” and there’s a debunk of the debunking as you mentioned earlier with (e.g. with Maria’s shoe). I think it’s pretty presumptuous of people who were not witnesses to certain events try to claim how something transpired. I think at most one can usually prove is that something could have happened a certain way but there are always a lot of speculations and simply proving that something could have happened a certain way isn’t the same as proving it did happen a certain way.
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MrPumpkin,
The book “The Self Does not Die” has some interesting cases.
I don’t know what year each case was from but the most interesting ones that come to my mind are:
-Norma Bowe who reported a patient that read a 12 digit number that should have been outside of his/her field of vision
-Chris Yerington who reported a similar case, although he has mentioned some possible conventional explanations for his particular experience in a youtube interview
-A patient that described an amputation taking place in another room
-A patient that described seeing a room full of manikins that was outside his field of vision
-A patient that identified a coin along with the year that was outside his field of vision
These are the ones that come to mind for me as the most interesting cases.
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Re Pam Raynolds… this has discussed to elsewhere… it comes down to whether you accept that Spetzler had put Pam into Burst Suppression (as per the published procedure that he invented – and published as a paper), or, whether she wasn’t in burst suppression – during the periods which Pam recalled.
All the evidence I’ve seen suggests she was in burst suppression. People in Burst Suppression it’s thought should not be able to form/recall memories.
However, very recent studies seem to suggest that the idea of burst suppression being global – across the whole cortex may be incorrect. At least 2 studies now show that the visual cortex, and auditory areas are completely disconnected from the cortex during burst suppression – and do their own thing.
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Check out Sam Parnia new book Lucid Dying. Its a good read
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It is.
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Why is the Zombie theory, that we simply respond to stimuli and the strongest desire at anyone time, so strong in modern psychology despite the ‘hard problem’ and verifiable OBEs?
Is filter theory, or a similar one, more likely?
Sorry to put my anxieties about our existence on you all. After all, I want to be more than an organic robot that only thinks it has its own will.
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The very fact that you are asking yourself these questions show that we are more than Zombies. To me, the fact that our brain filters so many information that can be “unfiltered” or biased by different means kind of demonstrates we are more than action/reaction even from the strictest materialist viewpoint. Humans have power over their own brains, simply by voluntarily adopting certain behaviors or mindset (like meditating, for example). As someone in the large field of psychology, I’d also say most of my colleagues don’t adhere to this almost-Pavlovian Zombie view. Many are writing books about consciousness that don’t adhere to this view, also.
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Thanks, Zombie theory was making me worried. It’s nice to see that the theory is hogwash.
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curious if anyone have listened to the Telepathy Tapes podcast? It features non verbal autistic youth who are demonstrating telepathy? What’s relevant here is that they seem to also have access to the spiritual realm as well. Interesting if you accept all of it.
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If one imagines that all human beings are just consciousnesses cloaked in earthly flesh, and that these consciousnesses, which are both centrally and remotely accessible, and interconnected, survive death, then “skills” such as telepathy and mediumship are an obvious consequence of this potential reality. Whether using these “skills” is a good idea, is a totally different question, and I would argue it is not.
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Oh, that looks like Diane Powell… she keeps making silly telepathy claims from evidence she produces, that does not actually demonstrate telepathy… I had a run in with her in the past over the Haley debacle… I’ve decided she is a fruitcake…
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Ive found her work interesting BUT the issue all comes down to facilitated communication or spelling which many believe is debunked. That is the facilitator, for example, is holding a board with letters and slightly maneuvering the board or cueing the autistic person to select the letters. Hence it is generally believed to be the facilitator communicating, most likely unconsciously. They argue this because if the facilitator is blinded, the non-verbal autistic is lost. However this is not always the case, and we do know that there are autistic people that can use a spelling board or iPad independently without any interaction with another person beyond asking a question. This is established. Peoples abilities are on a spectrum.
For most of the autistic non verbals in the podcast, all are getting help with a facilitator (touching, holding a board) except one young man, Akhil. He is spot on and convincing. He can be on the far side of the room, not look at his mother who is telepathically conveying something, and independently type the letters on an IPAD. Astounding. You have to pay the $10 to see it all in action (videos) which I did.
DOPS at UVA are planning to research this ability with non-verbals. I hope Akhil is included.
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@Tony
well you sound less critical than I am… and I’m convinced that people can recall experiences which are not their own.
I had a childhood ‘telepathic’ type experience as a child, which was witnessed and verified. All my research since, suggests to me that the whole of Experience is constructed from sharing – built out of matching patterns which are shared.
There are literally loads of spontaneous cases of humans recalling experiences which are not their own: Apparitions (from the past), Telepathy (in the present), Premonitions (in the future), not to mention NDE OBE’s, Prayer, Hypnotism, Mediumship, Ouija, etc.
But discovering a reliable way to expose a convincing effect between two people which can be studied in simple experiments is difficult.
Sheldrake seems to have found a method to demonstrate an effect between a dog (Jaytee) and owner – that was convincing to me.
The University of British Columbia found an interesting method of tricking a subject with a stooge, whilst using a Ouija to put the subject into a state where they believed the puck was not under their control. But the researcher and the UBC never pursued it further.
I and a friend have found a way to produce an effect which we we have found fairly convincing whilst driving. This suggests that normal experimental methods, where you want something to happen, or have a target, are destined to fail because these methods preclude the very mechanism we want to expose. The after-effect of my first and longest period of success (driving for a full 90 odd minutes practicing it), was so terrifying, that I ‘metaphorically’ slammed that door shut.
Previously I’ve discovered an unexpected effect, whereby I seems to have gained strongly felt, fear-based knowledge of an event 6 months in the future, the result of chewing on Moroccan Black for the first time with my mum, and later that evening having a horrific paranoid attack under the drugs influence.
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I agree Tony. The telepathy tapes seem to to strongly suggest that telepathy is real
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Interesting post Max. Food for thought. Paul
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i was looking at the Pam Reynolds case again and found it curious that apparently only one side of the headphones emitted loud clicks (the other emitted a much quieter white noise). Does anyone know if she reported hearing any clicks? According to Woerlee she did not mention any clicks in her interview with Sabom.
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some interesting cases here
https://psi-encyclopedia.spr.ac.uk/articles/near-death-experiences-%E2%80%93-paranormal-aspects#Penny_on_the_Cabinet
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That is a great list of some of the all time best verified OBEs, 10 of which I include in my books. In my mind they represent proof beyond doubt that OBEs are real.
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This is probably a controversial topic but I found this article interesting. It talks about the idea of quantum consciousness. Supposedly this finding supports the idea but doesn’t prove it.
https://neurosciencenews.com/quantum-process-consciousness-27624/
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Sounds like something Stuart Hameroff and Roger Penrose would talk about if I am not mistaken.
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Maybe you find this interesting:
It’s about the question why increased conscious awareness is associated with decreased EEG power in advanced concentration mediation.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053811924004701
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What are your thoughts about the “the self is an illusion” claims and what this means in regards to consciousness? There are experiments with medication, drugs, meditation, VR, mirrors etc that seem to change, manipulate or dissolve our or the sense or feeling of “I”. I am interested in what your opinions regarding this topic are.
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Hi Max. Put the kettle on and watch this when you have an hour to spare. It will help to answer your questions. It’s a must-watch. I hope the link works. Paul
https://uvahealth-org.zoom.us/rec/play/ZB_VhKMjo9JADGymJ8WyFl_FvbcSmeRxQ4Qhg6yZTi5ZBsw_kIEj0XcJsVNr_xH_EfCbG5swodlQK_I3.X8af6Bc1kELotfy1?canPlayFromShare=true&from=share_recording_detail&continueMode=true&tk=UZnQpx_DeK7TdkxXceLUFvQnfxWJy6u33vz-juRmVLM.DQcAAAAWGhtN1BY4Rml5dzBwM1JIcVVCUkhGdHlPcWZ3AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA&uuid=WN_xUt-CcdoTj2ed7-ouI8HQg&componentName=rec-play&originRequestUrl=https%3A%2F%2Fuvahealth-org.zoom.us%2Frec%2Fshare%2FQ6f5b3dzW9pTwJx86Uq3Hq6KIT_zdJOw7sKg-w-soSdOijOAwOBYIHEW7FQJ_LJ7.sYw3blaKNT8CDpTm%3Ftk%3DUZnQpx_DeK7TdkxXceLUFvQnfxWJy6u33vz-juRmVLM.DQcAAAAWGhtN1BY4Rml5dzBwM1JIcVVCUkhGdHlPcWZ3AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA%26uuid%3DWN_xUt-CcdoTj2ed7-ouI8HQg%26_x_zm_rtaid%3DXJ3wdsnKRpmD1gsSRQKd9A.1737007409666.421e04f98bb5fad54bc260b26d13d240%26_x_zm_rhtaid%3D389
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The webinar in out of body experiences was very informative
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Haven’t had the chance to read but recently saw this on NYT. Probably more appropriate on the Peter Fenwick thread.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/17/science/near-death-experiences.html
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Here is the original article that prompted the other one. Surprised to see Fenwick being mentioned in the NYT.
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/09/science/peter-fenwick-dead.html
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Saw this interview by Frederico Faggin. Faggin was the leader of the team at Intel that developed the 4004 chip which is considered the first cpu. He discusses consciousness. He does mention OOB experiences at 37:30. I think he switches topics a bit and returns to the topic a little later. To be honest the interview doesn’t discuss OOBs extensively but thought it was interesting that he mentioned them.
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Good video His book Irreducible is a good read
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Video?
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Good interview. His book Irreducible is à good read
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Will you by any chance write something regarding “Is Human Consciousness Quantum After All?” (which does not automatically mean we do not have a soul, it could maybe make it possible to integrate the soul into science or something, U am not sure if I get that right) I would love to read your take regarding this.
https://neurosciencenews.com/quantum-process-consciousness-27624/
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Good idea Megina. I also think consciousness is connected to a quantum process and a great idea for a new thread on Aware. Over to you ‘Ben’. Regards Paul
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I agree. What I would really love to do is create a proper forum so we can have separate ongoing threads on different topics and that people can create their own topics and threads etc. I may be about to move countries again, but I could have a few weeks free to set something like that up. I really detest the way this blog currently works, and I am sure it is off putting for those who wish to be more proactive.
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I have never had a problem navigating the Blog personally. Good luck with the move.
Ben wrote:
‘What I would really love to do is create a proper forum so we can have separate ongoing threads on different topics and that people can create their own topics and threads’
+1
Great idea!
Paul
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I would need to upgrade WordPress so I could install a plugin. I might create a post to see if people would support this with financial and other help. Would need a couple of mods. Unfortunately a lot of the “regulars” of old don’t seem to come here so much otherwise I would have roped them in. I may be starting a new job soon as well and that will demand all my attention, so need to give it some thought.
At the very least I will create a few pages on this site so that we can have ongoing discussion on different topics rather than this linear blog.
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Nice one – Keep Rocking. Paul
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I do mention quantum mechanics in my book, and how it may relate to consciousness. I will write one, but I may decide to upgrade the site first.
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I thought you seemed to be against the idea of using quantum physics to describe the brain — or did I misunderstand or am not remembering correctly?
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I am against reductionist explanations that try to use quantum mechanics to explain consiousness, but I suspect that quantum mechanics may lie at the heart of how the consciousness interacts with the physical brain. After all quantum mechanics point to dualism and the mystical nature of our surroundings by virtue of the fact that sub atomic components are both wave and particle, and that nothing exists until it is observed. I just regard these as explanations of some of what we observe, but not their origins.
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I was watching this video. I thought Dr W made some interesting points about potentially using hypnosis to illicit some memories which may have been lost after OBEs. I think she talks about it around the 43 or 45 minute mark. I was a little bit worried when she brought up the telepathy tapes studies. I haven’t looked into it but it seems like many scientists are calling it pseudoscience.
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I meant to say elicit not illicit
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My spelling is so bad, I wouldn’t have noticed!
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Theres going to be a zoom lecture on NDES this Tuesday. Some from University of Virginia division of perceptual studies will host it. Anyone interested can type in Bill Roll lecture on the university of Virginia division of perceptual studies. Or go th their Facebook group and scroll down till you find it. You can register there.
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Thanks.
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okay I am running into a roadblock. Can anyone point me to any veridical near death experience that took place 2020 or after?
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A NDE with OBE case published in the literature during 2022:
NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCES IN CASE OF
SEVERE OBSTETRICS SHOCK
https://hrcak.srce.hr/file/420394
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quote:
…she told in detail what happened to her in the delivery room:
“I saw a bright light and from above i watched all the events that were very dramatic, but i was not embarrassed. I saw my pale body lying with a tube in its mouth and a doctor blowing an artificial respiration balloon; I had bloody legs spread and the floor was covered in blood. Another doctor came, put on an apron, sat between her legs, vigorously pushed large pieces of gauze into her uterus, and said that a hysterectomy on a dying woman should be avoided as much as possible. He asked what the findings were, and the doctor who inflated the balloon said that she was not coagulating and that she was bleeding, that there was no blood pressure or pulse. Nurses and doctors pumped blood and infusions from plastic bags that hung on a stand. After the bleeding stopped and I was transferred from the delivery room to the ICU transport cart, the whole room was covered with my blood and sheets soaked in blood, and the knowledge of out-of-body experiences disappeared. You are the doctor who saved my life, thank you”,
telling the doctors, turning to a senior consultant whom she could not see because she had already lost consciousness and was intubated.
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I’d be curious to know which ones happen when patients have their eyes taped shut because those would be of the most interest to be. This patient probably didn’t have her eyes taped shut.
What is meant by this sentence:
“and the knowledge of out-of-body experiences disappeared.”
?
Did she recount her experience and then forget about it?
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It is a very strange expression.
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At 530 central time today. There is going to be a zoom webinar on NDES. Go to the university of Virginia division of perceptual studies Facebook page. Scrool down and you can register for free
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Hopefully they post it on YouTube. If you attended then how was it? Was there a name for the talk?
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Its called the Bill Roll lecture 2025
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I found this guy on Quora, I would like to know your thoughts about his theories. He writes a lot about origin of consciousness, consciousness itself, memory and also sometimes about NDEs (Dec 8th, 2024; Jan 5th, 2025; Jan 20th, 2025. These three are about NDEs, I havent scrolled further)
https://www.quora.com/profile/Jouko-Salminen
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Dec 24th 2024 is also about NDE.
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This is from 2022 could be interesting for some maybe. The article and comments.
https://theness.com/neurologicablog/aware-ii-near-death-experience-study/
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The article predates a lot of the detail that comes out of AWARE II. His representation of the AWARE I study is disingenuous in that he does not report the percentage who have OBEs…only 2 people reported OBEs, neither occurred in rooms with cards, and the man was able to report events accurately. As for AWARE II, the fact that none of the patients with EEG activity reported any recollections does not support his hypothesis. It could be interpreted to be the exact opposite of what he suggests in fact, but my preference is to just accept it says nothing. He completely ignores the empirical data collected from hundreds of healthcare professionals who validated OBE observations.
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What I found interesting is that in the case of the man who recalled the OBE in the aware study, he claims to have had a surgical drape obscure his line of sight. He claims that if he hadn’t been out of his body he would not have been able to identify (or even be aware of) a second doctor present during the procedure. I’m surprised Parnia didn’t delve into this more in the original paper. I was able to gather this from his book (I think it was Erasing Death but it may have been Lucid Dying).
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Good morning Pablo. You wrote: ‘He claims that if he hadn’t been out of his body he would not have been able to identify (or even be aware of) a second doctor present during the procedure’
Could the answer be that the guy was not fully under the anaesthetic and could still hear? This would account for how he knew there was another Doctor in the room.
Rgds Paul
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But if I remember he described what he looked like, so I think that would be the main point of not being able to see.
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Hi Paul. I suppose it’s a possibility and its kind of left up to the reader to decide if it was possible or not. As far as I can tell the patient didn’t even realize there was another doctor present and was able to recognize him when he arrived after the surgery. If I were to play devil’s advocate I would say that the patient was able to somehow perceive there was a second doctor and after the surgery when the doctor came in he assumed it was that same doctor and his brain reconstructed a false memory with that specific doctor in it. I will try to paste the relevant quote. I think the difficult part in these situations is that we’re only left with the testimonials and have no way to know how accurate they are. For example we don’t know if the drapes really covered up the patient. We just have to take the patient for his/her word and realize there’s some chance that the recollection is wrong. Hopefully Ben is tolerant of my walls of texts (2 in one day!):
=======
You blanked out?
I must have done. I didn’t know at the time, but then I can remember vividly an automated voice saying, “Shock the patient, shock the patient,” and with that, up in that corner of the room [he pointed to the far corner of the room], there was a person beckoning me. I can see her now, and I can remember thinking (but not saying) to myself, “I can’t get up there.” The next second I was up there and I was looking down at me, the nurse Sarah, and another man who had a bald head. I can remember doing that. I can remember seeing them whilst I was up there watching them do that.
What did Sarah look like?
Sarah who?
Sarah the nurse.
She had blond hair. She was quite tall.
And you could see her from . . . ?
Up in the corner, right up in the corner I was, with this other person beside me.
So let’s say this is the room. Where were you lying before this happened? Where was your head?
On the bed here, and that’s the corner. [He again pointed to the far corner where his legs would have been pointing had he been lying down. There was a bed in the hospital interview room.]
Where was Sarah standing relative to the corner?
[Before this happened] I couldn’t see down here. [He showed the end of the bed where his legs and groin area would have been.] I couldn’t see her and I didn’t even know there was another man standing there. I hadn’t seen him. Not until I went up in that corner—then I saw them. You understand what I am saying?
Before this happened, before you lost consciousness, you didn’t see Sarah physically at that point, and you didn’t see this man with the bald head?
No.
When you were looking there, were you seeing her front, her face, her back, or what were you seeing?
[He pointed to the far corner of the room.] This was me, and she was here. [He pointed to the end of the bed.] And the other man was on the other side of me there. [He pointed to a position next to the nurse where his legs would have been.]
Which way were they facing?
Towards my head. Away from me while I was looking down from the ceiling.
You could see their backs?
I could see all this side of them. [He pointed to the back.] As clear as the day I could see that. [He pointed to an object.] The next thing I remember is waking up on that bed. And these are the words that Sarah said to me: “Oh you nodded off then, Mr. A. You are back with us now.” Whether she said those words, whether that automated voice really happened, I don’t know—only you would know those things. I don’t know how to be able to confirm that those things did happen. I am only telling you what happened with me and what I experienced.
******* (Break from interview)
In the medical records, the events had been independently documented. It read:
In cath lab recovery area . . . IV access obtained by cardiology registrar. [This is the senior cardiology trainee physician getting access to the blood vessel.] Whilst repeat ECG taken—VF arrest. Shock x2 AED 150 joules. [“150” refers to the strength of electricity the AED device had given.] Return of circulation 15:07 hours.
********** (resumption of interview)
May I ask you something else? What else did you see in the room? What I mean is, did you pay attention to anything else or were you fixed on this? What were your feelings? If you remember any? What else if anything were you looking at? And what happened to the lady that you saw?
I don’t know what happened to that lady. I can still see her now if I want to. I want to say she was an angel.
Did you recognize her?
No.
What were the distinguishing features about her?
She had lovely curly hair. It wasn’t blond but it wasn’t dark, if you know what I mean. She just had lovely features about her. I would say she was an angel, but from what I perceive as an angel. I can remember that she beckoned me (I can remember thinking, and I know I didn’t say it, “But I can’t get up there”), and the next second I was up there.
You thought it?
Yes, 100 percent I thought it.
You thought, “I can’t get up there”?
Yes.
So, can I take you back to that thought—when you had that thought, where were you?
In my bed.
Right, but were you physically in the bed or just above yourself? How was it that you saw her? Were your eyes open? Do you know what I mean? How were you summoned?
Whilst I am lying down, when I have looked up there, she beckoned me like this. [He mimicked being beckoned.] I can remember thinking, “I can’t get up there.” You know, whether I said that with my face I don’t know, but that is how I felt. I can remember feeling it and the next second, I was up there, looking down on me.
In that split second, before you found yourself up there, did you see anything else around you in the room?
I can’t remember.
Okay, it was such a split second that you basically just shot up and you were there. And then when you went there, you didn’t notice her anymore—is that correct?
It felt like she was with me.
It felt like there was a presence there.
I didn’t say I couldn’t see her anymore, because I wasn’t looking to my left or right while in the corner. I was looking down at my body lying below.
Did she have any kind of presence? I mean, how would you describe her? Did she have any qualities, any personality?
I felt that she knew me, I felt that I could trust her, and I felt she was there for a reason and I didn’t know what that was.
So then, you were basically fixated on what was going on down below—it grabbed your attention?
I was up there looking down at me lying on the bed, and I couldn’t see my face because there was like a curtain here, and I didn’t know [before this happened] that there was a man on the other side of me [he pointed to where the drape had been placed that had prevented his seeing what the doctors and nurses were doing to him before his experience], and I could see Sarah on that side, and that’s all I can tell you.
What did the man look like? I mean, what did you see of him? Can you still picture him?
I couldn’t see his face but I could see the back of his body. He was quite a chunky fella, he was. He had blue scrubs on, and he had a blue hat, but I could tell he didn’t have any hair, because of where the hat was.
What did you see of his head that made you think about it?
Just very little. It looked like he was bald and he just had a hat on. I wear a hat because I like a hat. I am not bald. I know who he is.
Who is he?
I don’t know his full name, but he is a professor now, and he was the man that I saw later, because the next day, when I was lying in bed on the ward, I saw this man [come to visit me] and I knew who I had seen the day before. I don’t know his name, Professor something. He is now a professor—he wasn’t at the time, but he is now. [The hospital staff correctly revealed his name and confirmed his promotion.]
Because this was 2011, wasn’t it?
Yes.
What was Sarah doing?
I don’t know what she was doing. All I know is that she was this side of me. [He pointed to where his legs would have been.]
What was she wearing?
Blue, well, like that color blue. It was a different blue to what he was wearing. Almost sure of that.
Slightly different blue?
Yes.
What was she doing?
I don’t know, something to me, but I don’t know exactly what they were doing.
Was she moving her arms?
She was doing some things and she was trying to . . . at one stage, I can remember, her face looking [toward the male doctor], almost in anticipation of his movements, checking to see whether he was going to do something or not. Do you know what I mean? That’s how it felt. Then within the next few seconds, I was back in my bed, and she was saying, “You nodded off for a little bit.”
What were your feelings like up there? Did you have any sensations, feelings, sentiments, anything?
The only time I realized that my heart had stopped was about twenty minutes later.
No, sorry, I meant when you were up at the ceiling, did you have any feelings then?
I can remember feeling quite euphoric in terms of, I am actually up here, I can see all of this. Do you understand what I mean?
In that split second, and you may have not had time to see or think of anything else, I am just curious, did you notice anything? Because obviously just before that you had this drape or curtain in front of you so you couldn’t see around, but then suddenly you were at the corner and you were able to see things. What did you see?
All I could see was a space in front of me and them working on me.
Anything else?
I just focused on myself. But I have thought about it and thought about it for a long time. I just wish that there was a way that I could prove to you what happened, and there isn’t a way but I think that I have thought of a couple of things that I think may help.
What would help?
If the doctor, or whoever is doing anything at that stage, picks up an envelope and in an envelope is a word, it could be any word, that is repeated three times between the two people or three people dealing with that procedure—whether I would have picked up on that one word or not, I don’t know.
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Another interesting read Pablo. Keep ’em coming and keep up the good work;-)
Paul
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I finished reading “The Embodied Mind” by Thomas Verny. The book discusses consciousness, among other things. I wouldn’t say it was a book on OBEs but the author does discuss the topic briefly. He was also the author of an article I posted here where he discussed the OBE of one of his patients when he was early in his career as a doctor.
Some of the claims in the book I’m a bit skeptical of. He referenced someone who appears quite questionable (His wiki claims him to be a pseudoscientist). I think that many of the claims should be taken with a grain of salt.
Apology for the data dump.
Here are some notes in no particular order:
Eric Kandel has supported the idea that synapses store memories. Verny believes a new model is needed.
“In 2007 Stefano Fusi and Larry Abbott called for “radical modification of the standard model of memory storage, and in 2012 Stuart Firestein echoed this in his book Ignorance: How It Drives Science, which also called for a departure from Kandel’s hypothesis.” p. 29
“David Glanzman’s group at the University of California, Los Angeles, exposed Aplysia to mild electric shocks, creating a memory of the event expressed as new synapses in the brain. Then they transferred neurons from the mollusk into a petri dish and chemically triggered the memory of the shocks in them. Next, they added propranolol to the neurons. The drug wiped out the mollusk’s synapses formed during learning. When the neuroscientists examined the brain cells, they found that even when the synapses were erased, molecular and chemical changes indicated that the engram, or memory trace, was preserved.” p. 29
“Finally, Patrick Trettenbrein from the Language Development and Cognitive Science Unit, University of Graz, Austria, in a 2016 paper titled “The Demise of the Synapse as the Locus of Memory: A Looming Paradigm Shift?” reviewed the evidence and concluded that the synapse is an ill fit when looking for the brain’s basic memory mechanism. It has been repeatedly shown that memory persists despite destruction of synapses and synapses are turning over at very high rates even when nothing is being learned. Taking into consideration all of the preceding, the case against synaptic plasticity is convincing.” p. 30
“The most recent discoveries in the realm of neuroscience at least question and at most refute the long-held theory that memory is stored in the synapses of the brain. The embodied brain hypothesis postulates that new information and experiences trigger the formation of engrams with enduring physical or chemical changes in neurons and in every cell in the body. Neurons make up only 15 percent of our brain cells. Glial cells, dismissed for years as mere connective tissue and otherwise of little importance actually control to some degree of communication between neurons and play a central role in learning. Astrocytes, in particular, significantly affect how information is transmitted and stored in the brain.” pp. 36-37
“Evidently, neurons outside of the brain, not just in the brain, retain memories.” p. 37
“Some studies support the view that it is the microtubules within the cytoskeleton that store memories. Nancy Woolf at the University of California, Los Angeles, concluded in the book The Emerging Physics of Consciousness that there are links among microtubules, memory, and consciousness.” p. 47
“Exciting work on bioelectricity in somatic cells has led Michael (Mike) Levin, professor of biology at Tufts University, to suggest that memory might be distributed throughout the body with somatic cells communicating bioelectrically with each other through gap junctions (synapses) thus forming a network similar to neuronal networks capable of encoding information and directing cell activity.” p. 50
“In view of this, animals such as the planaria that exhibit a remarkable capacity to quickly regrow new body parts along with their brains, confront us with a fascinating question: How can fixed memories persist in the planaria when their brains are removed and new brains grow out of their previous body parts?
Similarly, animals that hibernate and undergo massive pruning of their cerebral neurons during the cold months confront us with a similar problem.” p. 66
“In one series of experiments, planarians were trained to respond to certain stimuli, light and electric shock. When their heads were cut off and their bodies regenerated a new head, many of the regenerated worms demonstrated by their responses that they remembered their training.
In another series of experiments, planarians conditioned to respond to light-shock association were ground up and fed to other planarians. These cannibal worms learned to respond to the stimulus faster than a control group. McConnell interpreted this as evidence that memory in flatworms was not localized in the head but was distributed throughout the animal’s body.” p. 67
“The researchers had one group of planarians living in containers with a rough textured floor while the other group was housed in a smooth-floored petri dish. After a few days the worms were tested to see how readily they would eat liver in an illuminated quadrant on the bottom of rough-textured dish. Automated video tracking and subsequent computer analysis of the worms’ movements showed that the group that had spent time in the rough-floored containers overcame aversion to the light significantly more quickly and spent more time feeding in the illuminated space than did the non-familiarized group.
Both groups of worms were then decapitated and housed in a smooth-floored environment while their heads regenerated. Two weeks later, the fully regenerated segments were again tested. Worms regenerated from the familiarized group were slightly but not significantly quicker to feed in the illuminated part of the container, demonstrating that they retained recognition of the link between this type of surface and a safe feeding environment.
However, the worms exhibited no learned behavior prior to the regrowth of their brains. Evidently, the planarian needs to possess a brain for the behavior to occur.” p. 67
“Shomrat and Levin, in their memorable 2013 paper suggested that traces of memory of the learned behavior are retained outside the brain. But rather than assuming that this is accomplished by the peripheral nervous system, they believe that it is by way of mechanisms that include the cytoskeleton, metabolic signaling circuits, and the gene regulatory networks.” p. 68
“A good example of a hibernating mammal is the arctic ground squirrel (figure 6.3). Every September in Alaska and Siberia these squirrels retreat into burrows more than a meter beneath the tundra, curl up in nests built from grass, lichen, and caribou hair, and begin to hibernate. Their core body temperatures plummet, dipping below the freezing point of water. As a result, massive destruction of their cortical neurons takes place. Yet upon recuperation the arctic ground squirrel, as well as the majority of hibernating animals, demonstrate intact memory from their past by kin recognition, identification of familiar as compared to nonfamiliar animals, and retention of trained tasks.” p. 68
“The scientists concluded that bats benefit from an as yet unknown neuroprotective mechanism to prevent memory loss in the hibernated brain. Biochemical studies on the brains of frozen wood frogs have revealed various neuroprotective factors implicated in the promotion of tissue survival. While all these factors probably play a role in preserving a small collection of neurons that will form the scaffolding for the growth of new neurons after the animal “wakes,” they cannot possibly be responsible for preservation of complex memories.
No matter how you look at it, all these findings speak to the preservation of memory after hibernation.” p. 69
“Based on the above three classes of animals in which memories survive drastic cellular turnover and rearrangement, it seems credible to conclude that memory, in addition to being stored in the brain, must also be encoded in other cells and tissues in the body. In other words, we are all endowed with both somatic and cognitive memory systems that mutually support each other.” pp. 71-72
“Harvard Medical School’s Bessel van der Kolk, one of the foremost authorities on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, wrote some years ago, “Your body, believe it or not, remembers everything. Sounds, smells, touches, tastes. But the memory is not held in your mind, locked somewhere in the recesses of your brain. Instead, it’s held in your body, all the way down at the cellular level.” p. 73
“Remember the studies by David Glanzman, who successfully transferred a memory from one marine snail to another, by extracting from the nervous systems of those sensitized or trained (i.e., exposed to electrical shock) snail donors and injecting them into the body of untrained snail recipients.
In a similar vein, Shelley L. Berger at the University of Pennsylvania, experimenting with mice, discovered that after a conditioning and learning trial a metabolic enzyme, acetyl-CoA synthetase 2, affected epigenetically key memory genes within the nucleus of neurons. In other words, RNA and an enzyme in the nucleus of neurons is likely involved in memory storage.
And of course, there is Shomrat and Levin’s research on planaria that led them to conclude that traces of memory of the learned behavior are retained outside the brain.” p. 88
“Mitchell and Maya Liester at the University of Colorado, in a 2019 paper, after reviewing the literature on heart transplants, hypothesized that the acquisition of donor personality characteristics by recipients following heart transplantation may occur by way of transfer of cellular memory. They suggested that cellular memory consisted of epigenetic memory, DNA memory, RNA associated memory, horizontal gene transfer, protein memory, and memory stored in the electromagnetic field of the heart.” p. 89
“The paramecium, like the bacteria and slime molds we discussed, has no central nervous system, no brain, no neurons, but it swims around, finds food, seeks out a mate, and avoids danger. It seems to make choices, and it is definitely capable to process information. And since microtubules are nanoscale structures, Hameroff also began thinking that quantum physics might play a role in consciousness.” p. 102
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A very interesting read Pablo. Nice one – Ty for taking time out of your day to share this.
Paul
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Great post Pablo. My personal opinion, given what we know from NDEs, is that memory is not stored in the body at all, but is accessed by the brain. Or rather, even if some is stored in the body, all is stored externally. That is the only conclusion you can draw if the evidence from NDEs is true.
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I’m glad you and Paul appreciate the post. Not much effort on my part. Credit to the authors, Thomas Verny for this post and Sam Parnia for the other post.
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And just to add, some of this obviously provides some scientific evidence that memory is not stored in brain cells.
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Ben, I think the Quora guy, who I posted about a few days ago, has some theories or makes some claims exactly about how this could happen, NDE and memory. Maybe you will take a look and tell me what you think. I picked some post dates which may be of interest (Dec 8th and 24th & Jan 5th and 20th) but there is a lot more to check out.
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Very interesting post Pablo and thank you! I think especially Stuart Hameroffs ideas are very interesting!
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I found this very interesting, also some comments on this post when it addresses the gaining of new information during NDEs and other phenomena which have been unknown to people before. It talks very briefly about Parnias AWARE study too.
https://www.quora.com/Why-does-neuroscientist-Dr-Eben-Alexander-believe-that-consciousness-exists-beyond-the-brain
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Does anyone actually see it when I post a link or something from Quora?
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Hi Max. Yes, me. Rgds Paul
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I think it’s a bit too overwhelming for most people to sift through a quora user’s post history to give an answer as to what they think of this guy or his ideas. Also the question of what you think of this guy is quite vague. Did you have a specific question about one of his ideas?
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I will make a more precise comment later, with the date entries of the posts and answers I have specific questions about and why it caught my eye. Thank you for your answer!
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Hi Max, I briefly looked at the posts of the Quora user and honestly I’m not sure what to think about them. What I do know is that no theory of consciousness is fully accepted so when he talks about microtubules stretching and all, it’s still just a theory. He doesn’t give a lot of details, unless I missed it. Here is a list of all the theories of consciousness that the Closer to truth host made a few weeks ago : https://closertotruth.com/news/a-landscape-of-consciousness-toward-a-taxonomy-of-explanations-and-implications/
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Thank you Paul! I’ll probably make another comment about this but I will be more precise! I am also not sure when I will post it. Could be later today or some other time this week.
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I am sorry guys if I am starting to annoy you with this and I am aware that you are all busy. I do however think now that this might be of interest.
Regarding the theories on Quora who I found. It caught my eye because I am currently looking into the Orch OR Theory of Consciousness by Roger Penrose and Stuart Hameroff. The theories from Quora seem very similar to those of Orch OR in my view (which doesnt say anything since I am no expert or anything close to beeing one). While similiar the conclusions are totally different regarding OBEs, NDEs, othere phenomena and what could happen after death. The main claims from what I had understand (from Quora) is that consciousness is nothing more then a individual Bose Einstein condensate of memory bit string inside axon microtubule. All qualias (also NDEs) are memories and there is no qualia without memory. So no memories = no qualias = no consciousness.
These are the specific answers which explain the theories more than I possibly can from earliest to latest since you have to scroll down. Most are very brief and short answers, some a bit longer but nothing is very long. So while I show you quite a list, you will be through quite fast. An example: “What are some mind-blowing psychological facts that reveal how our brains really work?””Near death experiences. They are Qualias as any other Qualia or emotion. The point is how memory is saved even if action potentials do not occur.”
But now to the answers and posts in question:
Answers: from Saturday Feb 2 (consciousness after death), Thursday Jan 30 (higher states of consciousness), Jan 21 (origin of consciousness BUT very vague), Jan 20 (NDE), Jan 7 (origin of consciousness not vague), Jan 5 (explanation of NDE), Dec 24 (NDE), Dec 8 (consciousness is temporary).
And these posts: Oct 18 (memory), Oct 11 (NDEs, OBEs and Past Life Observations), one from 6mo (Memory is saved as a bit string of Nitric Oxide..) and the last one from 9mo (Einstein solved the hard problem of consciousness..) Regarding this theory: “Neurologically, memories are stored as connections and pathways among neuron.” He writes: “Synapses live only 70 days. PSD 95, the most important molecule in synapse only two weeks.” (which is why in his opinion this theory doesnt hold)
https://www.quora.com/profile/Jouko-Salminen
I would deeply appreciate some form of an answer! Thank you in advance. Since the posts also talks a lot about memory I thought that this might be interesting to Ben. The more interesting scientific mechanisms described are, as far as I have seen, in the older posts. (There arent a lot of them)
I also found this older paper which could be of interest regarding the ideas. (Consciousness and Bose Einstein Condensates)
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0732118X8990038X
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Hopefully everyone’s weekend is off to a good start. I wanted to post a question that I’ve been pondering today. This question may be too specific for anyone to answer but if anyone has some experience I would appreciate any feedback. One of the main explanations for OBEs using a conventional viewpoint is that perhaps some experiencers have some residual awareness and are able to comprehend what’s going around them. This seems to be basically anesthesia awareness. Sometimes doctors notice it but not all the time. Have there been cases reported of OBEs occurring when the doctor notices during the medical procedure that the patient has anaesthesia awareness?
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So I have been talking to a chap whose Mum who has “OBEs” with Ketamine when she is operated on. He said that after our last exchange in which he said his Mum could actually see the doctors and everything they were doing from the corner of the room, he went back to confirm this and she said no, it was like she was slightly lifted out of her body, but seeing the doctors faces from her body’s perspective as though she was at their level. That seems like visual distortion or memory of last observation.
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I’m assuming here she is knocked out, and eyelids taped shut etc? That’s the sort of thing the brain might do when it’s trying to unify third party/ies sensory/perception into one logical location of self.
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No idea. But I signed a book for him in which I said For Simon and his tripping Mum.
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Interesting story. Thank you. Were you guys debating the validity of OBEs or something?
It’s probably obvious where I was going with my question but I was asking to see if there were cases that supported what Kevin Nelson implied when he participated in the panel with Dr pania, fenwick and one other I think (Neal?). He was saying that while people are having their OBEs their eyes were open. This would lead to a possibility that they were taking in information. If OBEs are what experiencers say they are then there should probably have been a few OBEs where the experiencer was caught “cheating” sort to speak. I use the term jokingly. I do believe that if this were the case that they truly do believe their experience.
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I think most if not all of the OBEs in The Self Does Not Die, the HCPs said that the patients eyes were closed, but with OBEs on drugs…not so sure.
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I hope everyone is enjoying their weekend so far!
Ben, I have a question about the moderation process. I tried posting something a few days ago and so far it has not appeared here. Do you know something about that? I also didn’t get an E-Mail or something that my comment can’t be posted or that it has been deleted so is it still under moderation? Thank you in advance for your help!
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Hi Max,
My bad, I think you will find it posted now. I am in the middle of moving countries at the moment so somewhat distracted.
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Understandable Ben! I just hope that people will see my comment now, since we have so many currently that the comment section is parted in older and newer entries!
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