An attempt to disprove NDEs?
This Daily Mail article (thanks Michael and Pablo) contains one tidbit of information that is very useful:
“Charlotte Martial, a neuroscientist at the University of Liège in Belgium, who co-authored the study, is now trying to verify patients’ claims about their out-of-body experiences during NDEs.
Around eight in ten people who’ve had an NDE report leaving their body, sometimes stating facts about their environment that they seemingly should not know.
To test this, Dr Martial has decorated a resuscitation room at Liege University Hospital with unexpected objects and images, some of which are hidden in places that could be viewed only from the vantage point of someone near the ceiling – she is then asking patients who report NDEs if they’d noticed anything unexpected in the room.”
I mention this study in my soon to be published non-fiction book. Martial is not doing anything new here, and her study is much smaller in scope than Parnia’s, so it begs the question as to why she is doing it. I have my own theory on this and it is related to the fact that Martial is on the physicalist side of the debate. It is also related to the scientific method and the fact that for those who are into the semantics of this you can not prove a hypothesis to be true, you can only disprove it, or provide experimental evidence to support it. This is because there is always a potential unknown alternative explanation for a phenomenon. In reality we accept that hypotheses are proven true all the time, but for those who are pedantic about these things, it is is not technically correct.
Given what we know about the difficulty in validating OBEs – for instance Parnia reckons we would need tens of thousands of in hospital CAs to get one validated OBE – it is easy to devise an experiment that could disprove the hypothesis that “NDEs are a result of the consciousness leaving the body after death”. Here is how you would do it. you would start with a statement based on this hypothesis that says the following:
“If NDEs really are a result of the consciousness leaving the body, and 1 in 10 people who have CAs and survive have an NDE and 8 in 10 people who have NDEs report leaving their body (I will come back to that), then if 100 people die and are resuscitated, 8 of those people should leave their bodies and report observations from a room filled with secret images.”
So, you wait till you have 100 people survive CAs and no one has reported seeing an image, you can say you have disproven the hypothesis. That is almost inevitable because only 25% of NDEs have OBEs, and even then they may not remember seeing the image.
This, I believe is Martial’s game. It will take her a long time since if she is only using 1 ER suite then getting 100 survivors will take years, as we know. Also, there is an expression that you may have heard “the devil always overplays his hand”. I suspect she may end getting a “hit”, which will be galling for poor old Dr Parnia! I just hope she has the humility and scientific integrity to report it if she does. It would be so much more convincing coming from her than Parnia since she is a sceptic.
AwareofAware 
People sure do get attached to their theories. I don’t think NDE experiments as currently designed will ever get a “hit.” I find Bernardo Kastrup’s theory intriguing, and somebody should tell Parnia to re-design his research to test the Phantom World Hypothesis.
https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2024/02/the-phantom-world-hypothesis-of-ndesobes.html
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Your website says your name will never be used. Wrong!
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What do you mean by that?
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I made the first comment above and my name is included before the comment. I did not put my name in the comment. I only put it in the box as required in order to make a comment. I guess it’s just the email address that is not made public. Well, now you know my name! Actually, you already did because of my email address, but now your readers do, too. Good thing they’re all nice, friendly people! 🙂
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Ooh, sorry about that. Maybe it’s something to do with the you sign into WordPress. If you set it up using your real name, it may be that it defaults to that. I don’t even use my real name! Ben Williams is the name of the protagonist in my first novel. Like you said, most people on here are friendly and curious, and most people know my real name is Orson Wedgwood (hardly common) and so far I have had no bother!
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No worries. I would be concerned with some other websites, but here disagreements don’t seem to get personal. It’s too bad it’s not that way everywhere. Have a nice day, Orson. I mean Ben! 🙂
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I approve every first comment, and closely monitor this site for bad eggs. On rare occasions I have needed to ban people, or not let them comment.
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Sam Parnia new book Lucid Dying does a good job explaining NDES.
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I’m surprised I’m the only one who commented so far. Must be a busy Monday. So I’ll make another comment that isn’t related to proving or disproving NDE’s, since I’ve already commented on that. I haven’t thought about NDE’s for awhile, although I did read the very interesting book “In My Time of Dying: How I Came Face to Face with the Idea of an Afterlife” by well known author and atheist Sebastian Junger. Seeing your post today got me thinking more about Life Reviews, and being a shrink, I’m especially interested in negative Life Reviews, and whether there are any factors that are associated with them. I was surprised to learn there aren’t, at least based on the extensive research of Bruce Greyson (link below). Neither religious beliefs nor moral behavior (or lack thereof) during one’s life predict who will have a Negative Life review. Not sure how this fits in with your desire to prove NDE’s are real because you think it will cause people to behavior more morally, Ben/Orson. I’m doubtful NDE’s will ever be convincingly “proven.” To me, the most important aspect of NDE’s are how they subsequently affect, for better or worse, and sometimes do NOT affect, the experiencer. Anyway, just thought I’d share Greyson’s article if anybody is interested and hasn’t already seen it.
https://med.virginia.edu/perceptual-studies/wp-content/uploads/sites/360/2024/01/Roehrs2024_Terminal-Lucidity-in-a-Pediatric-Oncology-Clinic.pdf
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My upcoming non-fiction book, which will be available in about a month’s time attempts to address the issue of what the “subjective” elements of NDEs mean from a philosophical standpoint. I make no apologies about this, but I look at through a Christian lens. I am up front about that, so the book will not be for everyone, but I try to make sense of this issue of there being no correlation between good and bad NDEs and how people lived. My explanation was the result of an “Aha” moment and then suddenly everything made sense. However, I know that many will disagree with the conclusions that I come to.
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So I guess you’re not going to give us any spoiler alerts! 🙂 People never need to apologize for their religious beliefs so long as they don’t try to convert those who make clear they aren’t interested, and people never need to apologize for their biases because we all have them. It’s good that you know your biases and are up front about them, so others can take that into consideration, and it’s not often done, so kudos. You’re probably right that many will disagree with your conclusions. But the more your argument fits empirical evidence and is based on logical reasoning, the stronger your argument will be. The more your argument contradicts empirical evidence and/or the less logical it is, the less persuasive it will be. I’m not sure if you’re writing your book to persuade, but hopefully it will make an interesting contribution to the discussion. In your next book, you can explain why we have suffering caused NOT by man’s evil (the free will thing), but by nature, since things like disease, weather, floods, famines, earthquakes, etc. cause far more suffering than man’s evil. That is what caused well known New Testament scholar Bart Ehrman to eventually lose his faith, and it’s certainly something many of us struggle with. Bernardo Kastrup, whose explanations I normally admire, has said that suffering gives life meaning. He didn’t explain how, and I’m not buying that until I get a better explanation! It seems to me that suffering often causes depression and life loses meaning. So now I’ve given you a topic for another book! 🙂
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I enjoyed reading Dr. Bruce Greyson book After. I highly recommend it
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I saw that on Amazon, and I’m definitely going to buy it.
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what really caught my eye when reading the article was Dr. Koch’s take. I had read a lot from him back in 2017 or so and he was avidly against NDEs being a real peak into the afterlife or consciousness persisting after death. It appears as if his own NDE a few years ago has changed his stance. At least partially. This is actually quite big news.
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What I find interesting, and something that is central to the book I will releasing about a month from now, is the variation in accounts of what I describe as the subjective part of NDEs…namely everything after an OBE. This guy becomes formless something that is nothing with a cold bright light. Others have their bodies and are in heaven (or Hell). It has caused a radical change in my thinking on the implications of what NDEs mean and will be central to the discussion (with myself) that I have in the book. Before then part 1 of my novel will be available 🙂
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Do you think NDEs are tailored to each individual? Then something is all knowing and kind of watching. And it’s the speed of it as well. Koch got something immediately that maybe was fitting for him. Not like, “Dr. Koch, I am going consider some options for you. What do you think?” I wouldn’t expect maliciousness though, I’d hope.
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I will reveal what I believe is going on in my book. IT IS TOTALLY SPECULATIVE! However, it does fit the evidence available and also aligns with my faith. It requires a degree of deliberate and conscious confirmation bias but when faced a load of apparent contradictory accounts that is the only way to solve the puzzle. To me, everything now makes sense, whereas I would say that even a year ago I was struggling with this and was in a state of cognitive dissonance and that is clear from my previous book.
Beginning of November 🙂
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ok
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Michael, this interview with Koch on his NDE and another experience. I agree what you said about him and he has the IIT theory with Tononi, I think, trying to stay in the materialist framework. Then bam! Gets an NDE, like a poke in a new direction. Bet he can’t fit that with IIT 😉 I always thought he has integrity though was open to possible change. Exploring the mind’s mysteries with Christof Koch – Allen Institute
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Koch is an interesting guy who has “swerved” before and admits his theories are affected by his emotions, so in that way, he’s more self-aware than some others, but he’s still a scientist so he’s kind of stuck with the materialist framework. If you’re interested in knowing more about him and the evolution of his thinking, I recommend the very interesting book, “Mind-Body Problems: Science, Subjectivity, & Who We Really Are” by the gifted science journalist, John Horgan. (I tried to paste a link but it wouldn’t work for some reason). It was written before his recent NDE so it will be interesting to see if he “swerves” again.
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Yikes, I thought the link I tried to include in my comment didn’t work because it didn’t show up, but now it’s there multiple times and I don’t know how to edit it. I know Ben doesn’t want to move to Substack like lots of other bloggers, who still maintain archives of their old blogs, but it sure would be easier to comment!
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how do you know his stance has changed? Any sources or interviews?
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I recently finished Lucid Dying by Sam Parnia. I liked the book overall. The biggest thing that stuck out for me personally was on page 291 (in my ebook, I don’t know if it’s different in the physical copy) he seems to deny the existence of hellish NDE experiences. I was very surprised by this stance since it seems to stray from the mainstream. I think Bruce Greyson said that one needs to be careful to claim hellish NDEs as hellish NDEs for the exact same reason as Sam Parnia stated (namely some of these experiences can form after the NDE itself). However I don’t recall Bruce Greyson stating that hellish NDEs simply don’t exist. I don’t know if Sam Parnia isn’t overextending himself.
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I also thought it was interesting how Sam Parnia differentiated OBEs from some of the ones reported in the literature (e.g. those induced by Olaf Blanke). Basically Sam Parnia seems to claim that “OBEs” that are occur outside of NDEs are markedly different than those that occur during NDEs. If I recall correctly the observer may experience their legs in front of their face (even if their legs aren’t actually in front of their face) but it is still from the perspective of not being detached from the rest of the body. Also some “OBEs” that occur outside of NDEs seem to show the experiencer a doppelganger of sorts where the experiencer notices their own body double.
What I didn’t understand from the book is why Sam Parnia seems to believe that the AWARE experimental setup is bad for detecting the validity of OBEs. Perhaps someone who read the book can explain to me.
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Drug induced “OBEs” are markedly different, although Ketamine is much closer (I keep meaning to do a little post on Ketamine but am very focused on getting both my books over the line now).
The AWARE set-up is fine in terms of the equipment and design of the experiment, but it is the scale that is the issue. Can’t remember the exact number he says, but I think it was something like 30 or 50,000 in hospital CAs to get one verified OBE from AWARE II, which would mean having many more hospitals and research teams. I think this is why he turned his attention to DHCA. I have my doubts about that though.
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Yes, he is overextending himself…massively. I address this specific point and what he says in great detail in my non-fiction book which should be coming out a month from now at the beginning of November.
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See my link to Greyson’s article in the comment above. You’re right they exist, and his analysis is interesting.
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I find articles like the one featured here from Daily Mail somewhat upsetting. They make it seem like the majority of the scientific community resides in the materialist camp and the non-materialist facet of the coin is an obscure, ever shrinking minority. Yes, I’m aware that most neurologists are materialist, but the content of this piece doesn’t leave much room for hope that consciousness could survive well beyond physical death.
Koch, of course, has always been a materialist and attributes consciousness to brain activity. This despite having an NDE that he describes as “utterly remarkable” (albeit derogatory in nature). Then I learn from you that Martial favors materialism as an explanation for consciousness. Learning this is a bit coincidental. Just a few hours ago I watched a presentation she gave on YouTube that was posted one year ago. I wasn’t able to extract a conclusion about where she stood on the materialist/ non-materialist question, but there were subtle hints that, in retrospect, may have pointed towards materialism.
Ben, I know facing the truth, ugly or pretty, is something that life will eventually ram down our gullets whether we like it or not. But am I misperceiving things by thinking that non-materialist are becoming a minority within the NDE subject matter as the research progresses? The sphere of research and debate encompassing NDE seems so murky and convoluted to me at times.
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Thomas, I don’t think things have changed in terms of the number of materialists vs non-materialists, but I do think that the failure of the AWARE studies to deliver a result (and entirely predictable situation given how few people were interviewed) has created a vacuum for the materialists to fill. The arguments have not changed. There is no new data that points to a materialist explanation. You have to remember that the academic establishment is fundamentally materialist, along with the majority of the wider establishment in the media etc.
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How many of you think NDES are a real phenomenon versus a hallucination. I run a Facebook group called project consciousness Facebook page. We disscuss this as well as post articles and videos from both virewpoints. Feel free to check it out.
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Speaking for myself, I’m agnostic on the issue. I do think NDEs are a real phenomenon in the sense that I believe the experiencer has an NDE and isn’t making it up. As for how to interpret that, I’m not really sure. I’m trying to keep an open mind to the different possibilities.
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I’m one of the people that think even dreams are real thing. There are instances where people’s senses can function in dreams and unexplained things can occur like sensory function and even on rare occasion a sense of self awareness that can lead to shaping the world around you.
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What are your thoughts on people who die and get revived, but don’t have an NDE. It could be the drugs they’re given or maybe they’re not meant to remember. On theory says you have to be dead for a certain period of time to have an NDE. Any thoughts?
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I agree Pablo. I really hope there’s an afterlife. However, I remain agnostic myself
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I am certain of it 🙂
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One thing I like about Martial’s setup is that she placed multiple objects (in multiple places I presume). I think there have been several cases where there was a reported OBE but the experiencer claimed they were in a vantage point that would not allow them to observe the target. This method would hopefully allow the experiencer to increase the possibility of getting a hit if they are truly able to make observations.
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I agree that this is good, but only using one ER suite severely restricts the ability to recruit the kind of numbers you would need (maybe 5-10,000 thousand CAs yielding over 500 survivors who were prepared to be interviewed). However, if you were just looking to disprove a hypothesis, you could set it up in this way, get 50 survivors who are interviewed, 5 who have NDEs, maybe one an OBE but did not see any pictures, and say you have disproven it. Would still take a very long time if you consider how long it took Parnia.
Ultimately, we already have overwhelming evidence proving that these OBEs are real from the veridical accounts of thousands of NDErs, hundreds of which were verified by HCPs and investigated by Titus Rivas in the Self Does Not Die.
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Yes, I agree it doesn’t seem like she has the necessary throughput to be able to reach a conclusion in a reasonable amount of time. I do think though that at least in this one regard she has improved over previous methods.
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It does bother me when someone says they died and don’t remember anything. Butvthere could be reasons why that is
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I explore that in great detail in my upcoming book. All speculation of course as we do not know for sure. 1 months time it comes out 🙂
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I love books written on pure speculation, they are very fact based.
I think the moon is made of green cheese and am writing a book on it if people wil buy me a mars bar or similar donation in cash, 😉
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You make a good point. I will be editing the word speculating (based on available evidence) out of my book and replacing it with hypothesising…same thing, but sounds much better 🙂
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I can’t wait to read it. Let me know as soon as it comes out
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Anthony Peake has a new book coming out next month about NDES. You can go on amazon and check it out.
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Hi all.
An interesting read for all the sceptics out there.
https://near-death.com/out-of-body-experiences-and-the-nde/
Best.
Paul
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I’m reading “the science of near-death experiences” by John Hagan. I’m about 2/3 of the way through. It’s pretty good so far. I’m guessing many people here have probably looked into NDEs in some depth and so this resource may be redundant and contain a lot of information and stories people here are already familiar with but it’s still good. Although Hagan is the author the book is actually a conglomeration of a number of short essays of people studying NDEs. It’s mostly people who view NDEs as being real but I think they threw in a sceptic in the mix as well to provide a counter argument to the view that NDEs are proof of consciousness surviving.
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Sounds good. This blog has been discussing that very subject for over 10 years now!
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Let us know if there are any new insights. I have read so many books on the subject of the science of NDEs now, I kind of feel like it has all been said already by the likes of Parnia and Greyson. Until there is a scientifically proven OBE it is just a case of accumulating more veridical OBEs. In my view, we already have overwhelming evidence they are real.
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This is by no means a thorough summary of the book but I highlighted the information that is new or interesting to me. The book contains a lot more information that I omitted. Here are my notes:
Brain shows activity below flatline in deep coma and dying brain pp45
Alan turning thought evidence for telepathy was “overwhelming” pp47
4% of people encountered in nde were alive at the time of nde pp86
An example of a veridical obe is provided from Charbonier. For those unfamiliar with this particular case a patient had an obe where they went to the adjacent operating room and saw a leg being amputated and put into a yellow bag. The details were verified to be correct after the obe. pp97
NDEer Mary Neal had a premonition of death of son at 18 years old which unfortunately turned out to be true pp97
Wilder Penfield (prominent neurosurgeon) wrote a book that the mind is not a product of the brain pp125
——- in the last part of the book there’s a bit of a back and forth between Eben Alexander and Kevin Nelson. For those that don’t know, Even Alexander is a neurosurgeon (i think) that documented his NDE. Kevin Nelson is a NDE skeptic.
Half of NDEs don’t face imminent death according to Nelson pp 126
Syncope alone produces features indistinguishable from nde according to Nelson pp127
Stimulation of temporoparietal region with current can cause obe according to Nelson pp 127
Eyes remain open during syncope according to Nelson pp130
Those with NDEs have 2.8x higher incidence of REM according to Nelson pp 134
Nelson misses the point when he states that half of NDEs occur to people who were not close to death. The study he cited shows most dramatic changes in mentation occurred to experiencers closer to death according to Eben Alexander – pp144
Christoph Koch has abandoned trying to explain the mind as a product of the brain according to Eben Alexander pp145
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Sounds like a good read. I may have to buy it.
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Hi Pablo. Sounds like a good read. You can listen to the book for free on a podcast (link below). It’s free for 30 day’s so simply cancel before the free trail ends.
Paul
https://www.audible.co.uk/pd/The-Science-of-Near-Death-Experiences-Audiobook/B07TBBN5HG?&source_code=PS1PP30DTRIAL452022924008X&ipRedirectOverride=true&gclid=CjwKCAjwmaO4BhAhEiwA5p4YLwcoURVlz0rGR_Vs3cU2S2rEH1naG4OkQnk7FmcFDWwOBcJ0l9H7KRoCK24QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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It’s a shame that NDE/RED research, including the AWARE 2 study, is small. You need at least 250 hospitals participating in such research to have a large enough sample size to test OBEs and these claims. One of the biggest questions of life remains unanswered this way.
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Yep, it should be the top priority for mankind to learn the answer to. Instead pharma will spend a billion on research studies to make a drug ever so slightly better than another. Bonkers.
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Good morning. Here’s another interesting read on Reddit for the sceptics. The links are very interesting.
Paul
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Here is an interview of the anesthesiologist that gave this response to quora. He has expressed some doubt of the event at the 29:00 mark.
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Thanks, will look at that as his report is compelling.
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That is interesting indeed, and Chris Yerrington’s, or Frank’s case, is about as close as you can get to scientific verification. I think the fact that he allows for this possibility is good, but he confirms that Frank said he saw it from above, and also was able to recall detailed tidbits of the conversations they were having while he was observing from above. So while Yerrington allows for the possibility that Frank saw the lights while they were inverted, he doesn’t believe it was the case. The implication would be that Frank was either lying or he was in a state of confusion, in which case he would be less likely to notice the numbers.
Ultimately, although this is an extremely compelling case if taken at face value, it is just one of hundreds and if it had to be discounted because of this small chance of it not being what we thought, the hundreds (thousands in reality) of others still exist.
Ultimately he is open to the idea that it was not real, but doesn’t believe it to be the case. He also points the fact that either thousands of patients and doctors are liars or deluded, or this type of experience is real.
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Hi Ben,
Yes, Dr Y does seem fairly convinced of the incident as was described from Frank’s point of view. I didn’t mean to imply that Dr Y dithered in his position and hopefully I didn’t come across that way. I agree it’s good for Dr Y to hold a degree of skepticism.
There was another part in the video where he talks about the light coming from the lamp and it seems like an interesting point but I had a difficult time following the conversation. I can’t recall where in the video this is discussed unfortunately.
One thing I wonder about is if Frank was in a bad mental state and the lamp was flipped over I wonder if he could have possibly mistaken himself for being above the lamp looking down. This is just me playing devil’s advocate though. He does seem to have sharp perception regarding everything else that happened.
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Around the 34:50 mark is where I got confused. He says when the lights are “inverted” (presumably the lightbulb is above the light cover) then there is a lot of light going up (understandably). However, when the light was down (presumably the lightbulb was below the lamp cover) and he was staring down then there would also be a lot of light? That doesn’t make sense to me. Maybe it’s difficult for me to visualize or I’m not understanding the situation well.
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It was confusing. I think he was just thinking out loud, I wouldn’t make much of it. The patient described being stuck close to the ceiling for a long time, being a bit bored if I remember and noting the numbers because he was a bit OCD. This is nothing like the kind of description which would involve him seeing the inverted lights for a brief time that he may not have had tape over his eyes, he was conscious AND lucid IF that ever happened. So either Frank was lying, or it really happened as he described. Given that he never made a big deal of it himself other than telling the hospital staff, I suspect the latter. The whole thing is authentic.
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I believe the OCD patient is from the Norma Bowe case (2.5 in the self does not die). This is a different case that was also reported in the book but I don’t recall the case number. It’s easy to mix up the two though because they’re pretty similar. Both patients had OBEs and professed to see numbers they shouldn’t have had access to.
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Can’t see the link.
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I can’t see it either but it’s the same case that was reported by Chris Yerinton. His account is also given in the self does not die.
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Ben,
have you seen any studies on Dorian’s peak (I think that’s what it’s called when you see a person in your nde that you believe is alive but is actually dead). Steve Miller says there was someone who studied the statistics and found it quite improbable to occur by chance. He talks about it around 29:30.
https://www.youtube.com/live/fhqLc6GPu-U?si=BPuhqGyF9iI97gbI
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People have experiences that are not their own. This seems to be the same issue for all anomalous human experience. Whatever the mechanism is, it seems that experience is a shared creation. It works well enough that we believe we’re completely isolated individuals living in a separate independent world, until we have one of these anomalous experiences. Then we all start claiming what we’ve found is the truth, when it’s just a different part of the elephant (wise men and the elephant story). For myself, I suspect you can’t be told the truth, you have to search for it on the boundary – the edge between what one knows, and what one doesn’t. It can’t be hidden from you, as experience is created from it, so it is in everything. As you search, what is hidden in plain view, gets revealed.
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Well said Max.
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Ben, is your new book on NDES out now. If not, how soon.
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The novel will be available Monday…I will post here when I have put it on line. The non fiction book is about 2 weeks away.
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Thanks looking forward to reading it
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I hope you are satisfied!
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This woman clearly did NOT do her research
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Listening to this person feels like amateur night at the comedy club. I would also add that this individual’s “scientific” conclusions – a laughable designation of superfluous generosity – is heavily influenced by factors that have nothing to do with science.
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Indeed, while the title is correct in that there is no scientific evidence for life after death…there isn’t, and I agree with some of her analysis of the more eccentric research that goes on, she completely misrepresents the research done with cards and computer images. No one who has ever claimed to have an OBE had one that occurred in a location with the cards or computer images. Moreover her assertion that scientists have provided explanations for what is happening is untrue. Anyway, she is a radical atheist and not interested in genuinely understanding the true facts which are that while we lack scientifically verified OBEs, we have many hundreds of HCP verified OBEs. Moreover science has not provided a proven explanation for what is happening. Anyway, I could only watch so much of it. Ignorance is best kept to oneself rather than blurted out across the internet.
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Hey Ben,
I recall the first aware study suffered from tablets not being placed where OBEs occurred (I think there may have been 2?). In AWARE 2 I believe they had one OBE. I forgot the source but I think this person was able to recall what went on in the OR however he was not able to identify the visual target. Was there also no target in his room?
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Hi Pablo,
In AWARE I there were thousands of targets around the different hospitals, and 2 OBEs…neither of which occurred in a room with a target. However, obe of the OBEs was verified by attending HCPs.
In AWARE there were crash carts taken to people having a CA with an iPad facing the ceiling. No one had what we call a classic OBE. One person had something close to one, but did not remember much specific.
Both studies suffered from a lack of subjects surviving long enough to be interviewed.
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xylophonepleasantlyd6ef174331 wrote…
‘This woman clearly did NOT do her research’
Yep.
Best,
Paul
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Speaking of denial of eternal life as I bought this up I found probably the most staggering embarrassment of someone who’s in denial even if presented proof to the contrary online. https://www.quora.com/profile/Ian-3475. Reading this guy and seeing how arrogant he is with his answers thinking he knows everything. People often say theists are extremist. Well this guy is an example of an extremist atheist. It’s quite funny to watch. “Original question:” I like how he says that in some of his answers.
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