Clarification of the speculation
Thanks Thomas for spotting this so quickly and it seems to be the basis of the Scientific American article as the wording is very similar.
We now have a very clear idea of their thinking. As Mery and Z pointed out, it is in line with what Parnia has said before – namely that the EEG activity they are seeing during CPR may be caused by the brain accessing memories and “different dimensions”, which is certainly thought provoking, but without any evidential basis (unless there is data they have not yet published).
The reason it is without basis, as I have repeatedly said, is because not one the NDE/REDs in the paper had EEG data, let alone EEG activity associated with them. They are speculating on data from the patients who were either not interviewed, or had no recollections. How can they say that the EEG data is associated with the brain accessing stored memories when there is no reported life review with associated EEG data (note, this may not be memories stored in the brain)?
Moreover, as Mery has said in the comments in my previous post, and we have discussed before, the nature of the EEG data does not really support the hypothesis that this activity during CPR could be indicative of consciousness level activity anyway. It is more likely similar to the noise the engine makes when you try to start a car on a cold morning but it doesn’t actually start. There is blood going to the brain, but not enough for it really fire up.
However, and much to my relief, at least the speculation by Parnia et al is still clearly along the lines of a dualist interpretation of what is going on, and that the consciousness persists after death of the physical body. This would contradict any speculation by the materialists that the EEG activity data is the brain causing the experience. Indeed that may be the purpose of all of this, and has been thrown out there by the Parnia lab to pre-empt the expected materialist response to their findings. Nonetheless, whether the speculation is dualist or materialist in nature, it is just speculation!
AwareofAware 
This is an aside for those interested
They are showing the documentary “rethinking death” again
https://nyulangone.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_vnu10UEIReWOd_pVpDrg9A?fbclid=PAAaZk-h7E60GF5L1Vv29PtjtVIyTM8f-xrNAc1nRXiV_G9AuLNaaPTSs2jrk_aem_Ab27V_-FxX0FdQi-9z7EKkWfxUaikvdPo74QsmcY6sP5Pq7ltD8qspLp-nI0Oe9S4i4#/registration
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That video posted above a very interesting short video
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It is, and an answer to our concerns about their position. I have some more thoughts on why they are adopting this position, which I will share over the weekend.
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Bit of transcribing … At least from the Rethinking Death Trailer (2022), Sam’s asking the crucial “is there anything beyond” – with an indication there is, I think.
Then from the brand new video at NY Langone Youtube (2023) … “these hyper-conscious lucid recalled experiences are not considered hallucinations but a new experience that reveals itself with death. While no one knows the evolutionary purpose of this phenomenon its occurrence suggests our consciousness and selfhood is not annihilated when we cross into the great beyond”.
I thought the whole production of this new video was very uplifting in the sense of something really new going on, as opposed to them producing something factual and depressing – as if there wasn’t. Anyone think the same? 🙂
Still consistent seems to me because we have all the back-up from many other veridical, yet anecdotal, accounts that Sam certainly seems to regard highly. Just registered for the Oct 4 NY Langone Webinar!
(and doesn’t the “disinhibition” spoken of in the last video tie in with these new Imperial College studies with “psychonauts” with psilocybin etc. re the fantastic “dimensions of reality” people experience? Said before, but these folks have said how could the brain itself generate such experiences?).
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It is uplifting, and I agree that their hypothesis is an antidote to the materialist interpretations.
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My pleasure, Ben.
Take a read of this article (link below). Seems balanced to me, most especially with the introduction of Dr. Bruce Greyson’s contributing remarks, which offer a welcomed sense of sobriety from the contradictory and nuanced assertions made by Dr. Parnia. Even some Parnia’s quoted statements in this article seem a little less egregious when compared to previous ones he has made.
https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-09-14/40-of-patients-recall-some-consciousness-during-near-death-experiences
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I propose that the brain doesn’t produce consciousness, rather it merely changes, modulates, and attenuates the self or soul with its associated conscious states.
Unlike what the video suggests, when the brain’s natural braking systems stop working, rather than allowing other dormant parts of the brain to become active, it merely allows the self/soul to have access to other conscious states that one’s brain usually “filters” out.
So, as the video says, we then have access to all memories, and indeed, other realities. Moreover, one should feel hyper-conscious since the brain is no longer constraining our consciousness. It also provides an explanation for terminal lucidity.
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Great comment Ian.
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I don’t think this video suggests that that they think the brain creates these experiences.
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I know, I watched the video. But I think their position is at tension with the notion that it is the dormant part of the brain that is involved in the anomalous experiences at the threshold of death since this implies it is these dormant parts that create the experiences.
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I think that is how the Scientific American article read their position, but the video is clearly dualist in the point about persisting beyond death.
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Ian, I think what they are trying to portray is that “disinhibition” is allowing the brain to “pick up on” these new dimensions of reality. I actually think their position is exactly what yours is in your original comment! Am I interpreting incorrectly? Is that your take Ben?
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The second edition of the book The Self Doesn’t Die is available on Amazon. It’s published through the international association of near death studies. Iands.org. It’s a good read.
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I think it’s been clear – even at 9 months ago where he stands on the issue. See this video. Of course the comments he’s made above can be misconstrued by the materialist to support their position, Parnia to me seems able to walk the line purposely. Its funny that he looks like he’s in a closet in this video (as if he’s hiding while he argues the dualist position lol)
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Im not sure how disinhibition translates into unlocking access to a spiritual realm. I like it but another interpretation is that is that disinhibition is a function of “dying” the brain and the body are letting go. Once the breaks are off the memories naturally come flooding in and the “memories” and emotions begin flooding in. It is not necessarily unlocking access to the spiritual realm. The breaks are just off because they body and mind are breaking down. Sort of like a levy breaking and the flood waters coming in. Not an interpretation I like but I want the truth…not just to feel good. Im hoping to be convinced other wise.
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If one attaches real weight to the anecdotal NDEs Sam has spoken highly of at other times, this means more than just the brain. Are you *assuming* the mind breaks down? Cardena also overviewed (2018) parapsychology evidence in a major peer-reviewed journal which at least suggests mind can be nonlocal. And reincarnation evidence is pretty strong (DOPS group – Univ. of Virginia). Putting it all together? I see NDEs as one part of the puzzle.
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Im trying to assume nothing. It seemed that Sam was assuming that taking the breaks off assumes the mind is tapping to another spiritual realm. My point was …you cant assume that. It might/might be just the brain dying…going out with a bang. Id prefer to hope otherwise…but
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I think we might avoid the word spiritual as this word seems to imply a lack of scientific rigor. At least some people take it that way. I think afterlife is a good word. Discarnate consciousness is descriptive
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I get where you coming from on this, and I agree that a more technical term should be used when discussing scientific data around this. In my book I avoid using the word “spirit” until towards the end for the very reason you state, however, where I struggled was when trying to come up with a suitably snappy and scientific word for “spiritual”. I.e. when it comes to describing people who have a greater propensity for accessing, or engagement with these other dimensions. Open to suggestions!
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I give equal weight to the other evidence I mentioned as well as it’s in serious peer-reviewed journals. I wonder that over time, all this evidence could tail to zero but it doesn’t. That means something. Materialism doesn’t fit.
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I’m not sure how would I interpret the video, they are literally saying “Dormant parts of the brain become active giving access to new dimensions of reality like thoughts emotions etc” as if the brain is necessary for this. How do you interpret it? I interpret it as Scientific American did but I may be looking on the wrong side of it
At the same time he has done studies with peter fenwick who I think does believe in an afterlife so i dont know
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At 4:18 he basically states it’s not reasonable to think of consciousness as a by product of the brain. At 4:49 he goes all dualism and describes consciousness as a separate scientific entity, referencing the filter theory.
This video made me feel certain he is a dualist. It’s very clear to me. And given that I assume at the time of recording this video he was aware of the brain activity during CA AND he puts forth this disinhibition theory tells me he’s all in.
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Also just something that I found interesting is that when he describes the brain during CA as going through a process of disinhibition some might argue that its just freeing up the brain to access content already stored in the brain. Memories locked away long ago from childhood, for example. But in the context of this interview (with all the dualism references) he’s clearly referring to this disinhibition as unlocking access to the spiritual realm.
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One additional point- IMHO – there is absolutely no doubt that the brain has a direct effect on consciousness. There’s a two way process going on I believe. There are parts of the brain that affect emotions, fear, etc. Im thinking the amygdala for example. If you drink alcohol, that has a direct physical effect on consciousness. So for me, I was never comfortable with the filter theory of consciousness. The filter analogy denotes that somehow the brain narrows down what is perceived by the signal (signal = the greater self). But we are the signal. That is our identity, our consciousness/self. So instead, the brain must be effecting our consciousness, almost like its interfering with it, rather than filtering it.
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@Tony
…and one has to go even further, as there can’t be any special difference between the wakeful experience of the fleshy brain, and the wakeful experience of any other object.
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The Aware II study has been published and the authors deny what was fraudulently spread by CNN, namely that patients with signs of brain activity had experienced an NDE! The opposite is true, therefore the correlation between NDE and brain activity is disproved!
——–_
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/…/S0300…/fulltext
Two of 28 interviewed subjects had EEG data, but, weren’t among those with explicit cognitive recall.
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.resuscitation.2023.109903
source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/298187519017838/permalink/630867422416511/
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Hi Silvio,
I can’t for some reason access that Facebook group. Either way, while it is entirely correct to say that the EEG data was not linked to an NDE, neither is it true to say from the evidence provided that NDEs were not the result of brain activity. There is no evidence from this study that informs us on this subject.
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Anyone know when Dr. Parnia book will br released.
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This is a little bit off topic, but I read Peter Fenwicks essay for the bigelow contest and it feels as if he says in the afterlife we lose our individuality as individuality is located in space and time. It is confusing as he also mentions after death communications with individuals and things like that. https://www.bigelowinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/fenwick-consciousness-survives.pdf
What are your thoughts on this? Will we lose our individuality why or why not?
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That seems to be the opposite of what others have said. Also, the fact that NDEs are reported from the perspective of an individual does rather contradict this position. However, individuality has a slightly different meaning from being a separate yet connected being. My understanding of the other side is that we still have a unique perspective and presence, but that we are bonded closely together in love and see less consciousness. There is no ego.
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Dave. NYU Langone recently made another posting to their Reels on Instagram and I had the opportunity to ask them about their findings. Much to my utter and shocking surprise, they responded. Here’s what they said:
“Thank your for your kind words! From everything we have learned from cardiac arrest survivors, REDs are real experiences – more real than anything they have experienced before. The emergence of brain activity as seen on our EEG data may be a biomarker of this expanded consciousness, but this does not mean the experience is caused or dictated by the brain activity. We’re planning to post a more in-depth explanation on this subject soon, but I hope this helps for now!”
Well, what do you think? I’m sure it’s a member of his team (et al) that responded to this, but I’m pleasantly surprised by the response I received.
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I can direct you to their posting which also contains my inquiry and their response. If you want to verify that it’s me asking the question, DM the Instagram account that posted the question with a message that only you know the content and I will respond back (in case you have any doubts).
After they submitted an answer to my question, I thanked them. And I really have to give them credit for responding so expeditiously.
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Hi Thomas
I cannot see your response on the listing. Was it a DM you sent them?
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Z- Are you referring to the exchange on Instagram with NY Langone Health (Parnia Lab)? It’s on their latest posting, which features Dr. Parnia discussing the findings of the AWARE study. I just looked and my comments are still posted. There aren’t that many comments to that Reel (so far).
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Hi Thomas. Yes. Maybe I was looking at incorrect one
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Hi Thonas
It showing for me 9 comments and then when I look in only 5 comments appearing
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I’m assuming that none of the visible comments is mine. I’m not sure why they would limit access to simply reading comments, although I can understand activating comment moderation which is quite different. And yes, I can see all nine comments (of which three belong to NYU Langone). Don’t mean to press on this too much, but are you sure that you are looking at the correct reel? The adjacent one to the one in discussion also has nine comments.
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Yes fairly sure as most recent video. Perhaps just a glitch on my end
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Must be as I have created a new post around this.
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Oh wow! That’s a wonderful and quite frankly shocking response to receive on a publicly visible social media page for an institution like NYU. That’s essentially branding the whole institution in a dualist/idealist light.
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Boom! Thank you Thomas. There we have it. I was flying yesterday evening so missed all of this.
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interesting, but why do they say they have EEG brain activity associated with these experiences?
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Thank you Davide. Enough said!
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Can we discuss the observation that none of the subjects saw the visual on the tablet ?!My thoughts on that: various reports from other NDEs include a view of the room from above. My wild guess is that while consciousness is discorporate, people in the afterlife don’t have sensory abilities. Therefore they borrow the sense organs of living people. This accounts for the 360 view of the room as medical personnel surround the table. Also one accounting mentioned the view seemed to be about a foot above the body. This fits too for the eye level of medical personnel. Thoughts ?
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Hi Kim and welcome.
Thanks for posting your comments. The only reason that none of the subjects saw the visuals on the tablets in AWARE II was because none of the subjects had a visual OBE. There were only 6 NDEs, and unfortunately none of them reported a proper visual OBE.
Your thoughts are interesting, and thought provoking, but I don’t believe they reflect the fact that full blown NDEs with visual OBEs are always reported from a personal, specific indivual perspective, and while they may have access to other people’s consciousness and sensory abilities (although the latter has not been suggested by NDErs from my understanding), the fact that NDEs tend to follow a narrative arc from a unique perspective that moves beyond the OBE in the physical realm to a heavenly realm points to the perspective belonging uniquely to the one experiencing the NDE.
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The borrowed sensory apparatus doesn’t rule out the “perspective belonging uniquely to the one experiencing the NDE”. My guess is those who are lending their sensory input have no awareness this is happening.
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This is the correct idea Kim.
The recalled veridical hospital obe seems to involve anomalous transfer of information from third parties to the experient.
There are child OBE’s collected by Robert Mays where experients report that they: went into their sisters head, and looked out of her eyes at their body on the road. Or felt they were an adult looking down upon themself in the cot etc.
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Thank you for that reference. I’ll look for it.
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