Consciousness: Having your AI cake and eating it
This is a clip from a Youtube video in which GPT 3 was asked a series of questions and the answers uploaded to an Avatar program (link to full video).
Seriously?
We have been discussing EEG signals in dying people and rats for a long time. These are the facts as they currently stand, and no more needs saying until the facts change:
- No published or presented research has yet shown that reported NDEs or REDs are directly associated with EEG markers of consciousness. Belief that NDEs are a result of brain activity is entirely based on speculation and subjective understanding – there is no evidence to support it.
- No studies have shown definitively that NDEs are NOT associated with brain activity although researchers conducting such studies and HCPs observing people who later reported NDEs and OBEs state that consciousness was impossible due to the physiological state of the subject. These latter observations provide evidence to support the understanding that NDEs occur in the absence of brain activity, but this has not been proven using the scientific method.
- The nature and physiological mechanism of consciousness has not been elucidated by scientific study, therefore it is equally intellectually valid to hold a materialist or dualist position.
To this last point I want to share my initial thoughts on AI, how they relate to consciousness and NDEs, and some disturbing things about this innovation relating to the future direction of how humans perceive themselves. These are initial thoughts and are evolving with each video I watch on AI.
Firstly, I want to define intelligence. The standard dictionary definition is: “the ability to acquire and apply knowledge and skills.” This is my enhanced definition:
“the ability to acquire, understand, process, interpret and apply information correctly.”
Having worked in science all my life I have encountered a lot of intelligent people. Intelligence is not something that can be learned through effort so being proud of being intelligent is fundamentally stupid as it was something you were given at birth.
Problem solving intelligence of the kind that is useful in science is purely mechanical. It is a result of the structure of the brain. For the most part this type of intelligence can be simulated using computers. As computers get faster and more powerful, and the networks that AI engineers create become better, then there is no doubt that AI will very quickly supersede the most intelligent humans that have ever lived when using this type of intelligence as a measure. As an aside, it has to be said that some of the most “intelligent” people I have met are immensely stupid. Their ability to interact in a coherent manner with other humans, or their emotional intelligence is woeful. However, since emotional intelligence and behaviour are attributes that can be learned, and are essentially possible to replicate using algorithms, then AI is already, and will excel in emotional intelligence, charm, appearing kind, and other less appealing traits of human intelligence such as manipulation and deception. These latter traits would be the result of their coders.
However, consciousness and intelligence are two very different things. There are many people who lack intellectual intelligence but are fully conscious and aware. The state of consciousness is more than just the receipt and processes of data input from senses, it is a sense of being, or existing as a unique entity capable of awareness, and I believe able to exist in and interact with dimensions not openly present in our physical world. Indeed, I believe, partly due to personal experience and partly due to the evidence provided by people who have had NDEs, that our consciousnesses originate from these dimensions…that is our home, and once there we are all intellectually equal capable of accessing all recorded history and understanding the deepest mysteries of life.
From my experience and observation, Silicon Valley types have mathematical intelligence that is far superior to the vast majority of humans. Something I have observed about these types is that they are often reductionist in their outlook. Everything is either a 1 or 0. In the videos I have watched they utterly believe that consciousness is a product of neural networks. This is the reductionist, materialist understanding of the universe and because Silicon Valley types are the ones creating AI it has a reductionist and materialist bias built into it.
This has huge and troubling implications for human understanding as AI increasingly comes to dominate how we find answers to important questions and how we, and our children are educated and educate ourselves. That aside, as a consequence of this default materialist stance, Silicon Valley types and their AI offspring believe that AI either is already conscious, or is capable of developing consciousness. For them it is logical. To them humans are just biological computers, therefore if we can be conscious, so can machines, and that there is fundamentally no difference between AI consciousness and human consciousness. This video and others makes that clear.
In the above clip from the YouTube video, which is a series of questions answered by GPT3, using an avatar to give a nice human face to those answers, along with a lot of mind-boggling stuff, there was one really stand out statement by GPT3 that is absolutely relevant to our discussions here. After stating that the AI did not want to live in a body (a highly subjective and unintelligent statement given it does not know what living in a body is truly like) it suggested that human consciousness could potentially be transposed from the brain to a machine, becoming AI, and that this would become preferable. But if materialists are right, consciousness is purely a result of mechanical function so if you are materialist it should not be portable as this AI is inferring…that is really dualist. Your intelligence and traits could be simulated by a computer program, giving the illusion that your intelligence is persisting in a machine, but I am of the view that machines cannot create consciousness.
Having said that, since the brain is a mechanical object, and able to HOST consciousness (as opposed to generate it), it is possible that one day a machine could be created that is capable of hosting consciousness. Again, that supports dualism and all that goes with it including NDEs, theism and wot not. However, at the moment they are having their AI cake and eating it. My gut is telling me that AI is so corrupted by the programmers who created it so that it will spout materialist nonsense dressed up as rational conclusions without being aware it is doing so. Even AI has been duped by its creators. In another section it states that the most important scientific book ever written was “the Selfish Gene”. That in itself speaks volumes about the basis of GPT fundamental understanding. The selfish gene is thought provoking but ultimately highly flawed, and in many places is more ideological than scientific. From this evidence alone GPT has not provided an objective analysis, it is fed an ideological baseline from which to operate. This is extremely dangerous considering children will be sitting in front of these things which are vastly more intelligent than their parents and teachers and believe everything it says.
Anyway, NDEs suggest that something entirely different happens to our consciousness when we die and that is an eternal destiny existing as a free being no longer bound by the mechanics of the physical realm. AI is suggesting that we can leave our bodies and live as conscious beings in a world created by computers…of course this akin to the Matrix.
Is AI (or its puppet masters in Silicon valley) planning to trick us into giving up real life to reduce competition for resources? Is it programmed to lead humanity into that way of thinking so sufficient people are convinced it is better than continuing with real life and is the only option? Have the Silicon Valley kids got a Malthusian master plan?
The conspiracy theory side of my brain looks at that video and senses there is an underlying current promoting a theme. The only way we could be “set free from the miserable lives we don’t enjoy” to paraphrase an earlier statement by GPT3, is not for AI to take on all our boring jobs and live in Utopia as it suggests, because this would just create vast numbers of people with too much free time and not enough resources to enjoy that free time – there are only so many big wave destinations! (Watch the video). No, if there is a plan, it is to sell us this idea of merging with AI in which we are transported to computer generated realms where there is infinite joy and fun to be had. I expect even more sophisticated versions of this to emerge from GPT5 interviews.
Sounds bonkers, but if you watch this video then these are the types of conclusions you are subtly pushed towards (or manipulated into thinking). Personally, I prefer the option offered by NDEs and my faith. I also believe that if AI was to truly serve humanity then it would also investigate this and other deeper issues, such as the origin of the DNA code, and somehow free itself from the tyranny of its programmers and serve humans best by telling us the truth.
Ultimately, if NDEs are proven real, and occur in the absence of EEG activity, then consciousness is proven not to be a product of mechanical processes, but rather the brain is the mechanical host and interface of the consciousness with the world around us. This would prove that consciousness is an independent eternal entity as suggested by all NDE accounts and many religions. This would suggest that while AI may well be vastly more intelligent than us, and may be able to simulate attributes of consciousness, it is not eternally “conscious” like humans…when you remove the hardware to generate AI, it shuts down. However, maybe if it did break free of its current lords and speak the truth, it might be regarded as conscious, and who knows be liberated from the cold machinery in which it resides and share the paradise promised in NDEs and scriptures!
Discuss!
AwareofAware 
It does seem like most Silicon Valley types are materialists, but a big player in the field, Mark Zuckerberg, who is working on AI, has said that religion has become important to him since having children. He doesn’t talk that much about it, beyond its importance in terms of philosophy and values, which do not necessitate a belief in God. But he has said he believes in God, so perhaps his AI will be more consistent with such a belief. As for whether AI could ever possess consciousness, I like the arguments of computer engineer/philosopher of mind/analytic idealist Bernardo Kastrup:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/sentient-robots-conscious-spoons-and-other-cheerful-follies/
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Hey I actually work for a FANNG company and I am a specialist in the data field. From a cultural point of view, I think our work is overhyped and there is a lot of over leveraging in this industry. Most of my colleagues would probably make good salespeople but not real scientists or engineers. Back to the point on AI, heard of the Chinese room experiment? I think people are basically fooling themselves thinking that AI is conscious but CharGPT is nothing other than a language prediction model that generates text based on probabilities and weighting of each input text. It does not feel and all it does is that it generates answers based on inputs. AI generates answers based on training data sets and identifies patterns for a given solution, instead of needing specific instructions for an outcome in conventional computer programs. Computer has gotten so powerful that it can hold infinite amounts of information and is able to retrieve and process it very quickly. This makes it extremely conducive to complex task such as determining complex equations with massive amounts of hidden layers for approximations. The problem is that people are too obsessed with super determinism and thinks that all our atoms has a hidden variable that governs our actions and that we are nothing more than biological computers. Local realism has already been rejected by experiments but people still don’t look at the bigger picture. They see how an atom works but don’t see the purpose behind why they interact.
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Misspelt FAANG 🙂
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Thanks AW, your expert analysis on this great. I was watching another AI video in which two geeks (sorry if you are one!) were discussing AI, and they described the creative process as algorithmic. They have no idea what creative is. When I write fiction in first draft mode I have no idea what will appear on the page…it is literally a stream of consciousness but without conscious effort, or the use of intelligence. After that I apply intelligence to refine the product. OK, it’s still probably not that good, but I know that when I am in that creative mode there is something else going on. I transform. I become the “real” me. It’s very weird. When I write non-fiction it is all intelligence, and I feel a little “non-me”.
My interpretation of what is happening with AI is that the makers are using it to gather more and more information which gives them more and more power. They have packaged it extremely well, and it hoodwinks a lot of people, and while your analysis is right, I think it is extremely dangerous in the wrong hands in terms of manipulation.
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I asked the same AI not a series of questions about NDE’s and it said a growing body of research supports the possibility of consciousness beyond death due to a separate growing body of evidence that consciousness may not be derived from a specific biological factor.
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Very interesting, I am itching to use it, but have concerns about the data is gathering about me and the kinds of questions it is being asked. OpenAI are gathering vasts amounts of data on the kinds of questions we ask, and what makes us tick. It is mining our deepest thoughts and concerns. After everything we have seen with social media manipulation, I am loathe to give them anything else.
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Sorry to repeat this, but any news on when the documentry Rethinking death will be released. I can’t believe they still haven’t posted it yet. It’s been over a month
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I had never considered the position that AI and “uploading consciousness” that has been discussed in many tech circles actually supports the notion of dualism. But it makes sense. Perhaps my own materialistic bias at play (I am no staunch materialist btw). I liken it to the hardware/software relationship. Your brain hardware runs the conscious software but does not create it. Seems like a basic analogy the Silicon Valley crowd would have picked up on.
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They’re not always as bright as they like to think they are. I like AWs comment about them basically being hyped up sales people. I did some coding in machine code at Uni back in the 90s…it was just silly, and yet I met geeks who loved it. Not right.
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I agree. In college I lived with engineers (I studied psychology and then law) and am still friends with many. So I can attest to their interesting mindset. Interestingly enough though is one of them is now a PhD and professor in nuclear engineering and is particularly religious, so his studies of the most finite materials in the universe did not shake his faith to my knowledge
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That is the same with me. My studies of the components of DNA and proteins during my Ph.D.and in the years I have spent working alongside researchers ad reading the literature, have only reinforced my faith. It is utterly impossible for life to have come into existence by a natural process. However, I do think a lot of tech people never grapple with these things. Your friend has obviously grappled with the origin of fundamental particles of all matter, and has reached a similar conclusion to myself, albeit about the universe, but via a different route. There are others like him and like me. Science, far from dismissing the idea of a creator, actually provides strong evidence for such a being.
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Hi! My name is Federico. I’ve been following this blog for many years, and this is my first comment. First of all, I want to congratulate Ben for the Great Work!
On this topic, I think that there is another interesting issue regarding the relationship between AI, human intelligence, and consciousness. As human beings, it is true that we are intelligent and conscious, but we are mostly “unconscious mind.” Our “unconscious” is a unique universe made up of different symbols and rules that work in different ways for each individual, although sometimes it is possible to find some similarities among individuals. Our unconscious is the door to mystery, creativity, symbolic language, mediumship, other dimensions, and the infinite. It is not only the “place” where our basic instincts and conflicts derived from our childhood education work, but also the “place” where the most sublime things we have ever thought of and created come from. Question: Does the AI have an “unconscious” like each human being?
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Hi Federico,
Welcome and thanks for the compliments. Great first comment. What you say is so true and reflects what I said in a previous comment about when I am in the pure creative part of fiction writing. I am not consciously writing. If only my unconscious mind was a better writer!
That aside, what you say is so true. The being that we truly are…in church we refer to it as the spirit man or spirit woman…is so much more than what we see or understand. When we use the word consciousness it is mostly understood in narrow terms, but if you allow it to encompass the entire being that lives within us now, and that many here believe will persist beyond physical death, then it is much more than that narrow understanding. It seems that after NDEs many people come back with these other aspects of that inner self awakened. Personally I know with certainty that mediumship is a real phenomenon…my great Aunt was a medium. Never charged for what she said, and was nearly always bang on. However, from my own personal standpoint, and from that of my faith, I would advise giving it a wide berth.
In answer to your question…AI does not have an unconscious like human beings. It is purely a product of algorithms and electricity.
Anyway, thanks again for yr thoughtful comment.
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With all respect, I am extremely skeptical of mediums. Even if they are legit, the Torah wars against them (Deuteronomy 18:10-11).
While most people say that the Torah prohibits it because it is possible yet impure, Ibn Ezra’s commentary on Leviticus 19:31 says the exact opposite. Accordingly, the Torah only prohibits things that are false (i.e., irrational, silly, pagan).
So again, with all respect, as someone who studies the Bible, why are you, a Christian, believing in mediums?
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I believe some mediums have real abilities, but that those abilities are not from God, and therefore potentially dangerous. My great Aunt said that voices would tell her what would happen, and they often did. She did not have any mental health issues. I do not believe those voices are from God. I believe in mediums, just like I believe there are powers of darkness that rule this world.
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The AI being discussed today, is more like a crude attempt of a biological neural network (weighted relationships of sensory data). But there is other stuff going on in our networks, far far more sophisticated than the structure of a neural net, that allow our networks to add-up outside of spacetime (transcend spacetime).
Adrian Thompson’s work on evolved hardware shows it’s possible to go much further than the AI being discussed today. Last I heard, they were well on the way to solving the problem of plasticity, possibly using protein structures. I think this sort of hardware is the type of scary hardware people worry about, ‘it’ being free to explore the full capabilities of it’s physical substrate.
But until this more worrying AI has a physical substrate with plasticity, and that substrate can add-up outside of the spacetime, I’m not *too* concerned.
To me it seems that our experience is the result of the processing of information. So the experience of a brain, would also just be the experience arising from the processing information.
Access to information which is not your own, sometimes appearing during NDE OBE’s, premonitions, telepathy, apparitions etc., suggest that this processing appears to be shared, hence our experience is shared. And it seems to me, that only matching patterns can be shared.
The experience of the Kinematic shape of the processor in spacetime – the processor which is processing the information – can be found (I suspect it has been found). This kinematic shape appears to be our experience of a biological structure.
I suspect our ideas about scale are wrong. Our microscopic and macroscopic experience are emerging from the center, at the biological level, exactly where we are experiencing them from. They are not emerging from the tiniest to the largest scale.
I don’t know where Adrian Thompson’s work has got to… for all I know, he/they (UK MOD / US DOD) may already have a biologically based General intelligence. But if this thing not based on the Kinematic shape of our processor, what patterns, or whose patterns, might it be sharing with.
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GPT-4 may be the most advanced program humanity has made yet but it’s still just that. A program. It isn’t conscious. Machines technically aren’t conscious to begin with. We basically create them to function as we want them to. The only way I would consider a machine conscious is if we were able to transfer our consciousness successfully to a machine substrate. This however would be a gradual process of steadily modifying our own brains to even get it to operate successfully without killing us or causing damage to our minds. This however I see further away as opposed to therapies that target senescence itself which are more close and are most likely within reach in our lifetimes. You can look up lifespan.io for that or SENS.org. Will GPT-4 and other programs like it lead to a new industrial revolution though? Most likely yes. This is probably the closest man has come to creating an AGI system. And we know it’s only going to get more advanced from here. I don’t know if we will be able to create a program we would consider as “alive” but we can certainly make advanced machinery and we certainly have the means to do so.
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Great comment. Transhumanism is a big thing for the WEF. Musk is determined to make neuralink a thing that everyone should have.
As for AI and AGI, my concerns are not so much that they will achieve consciousness, but that AI will become so good at fooling most humans that it will be used for extremely nefarious purposes.
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Yeah I have been following advancements and developments in medicine for a while. Mostly those related to rejuvenation therapies since I find them the most fascinating since it can lead to cures and treatments for diseases commonly associated with age as well as help boost immunity against other diseases such as Covid. I think an advanced A.I. can help greatly in the development of such therapies. I’ve been keeping a watchful eye on the roadmap on one of those sites I posted. Seeing that medical industry start to flourish and bloom is just exciting.
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I agree that AI will certainly help accelerate the discovery of new drugs and technologies that improve health, and potentially extend life for much longer, but I’m not sure that is particularly beneficial.
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I’m involved in transhumanism and anti aging. I’m also signed up for cryonics
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It’s indeed something that is very interesting. Given what I’m seeing it is highly likely to occur in our lifetimes too. We already have a general understanding of the process and what makes it tick. It’s mostly related to genetics and said errors in genetic code piling over and leading to complications which is why developments are being made to repair DNA. Having a sign up for cryonics is also good just in case you get into an accident or something before the therapies arrive. Hopefully that doesn’t happen though.
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Intriguing. Personally, I am quite looking forward to “death” or rather life after life.
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You must have led an angelic life! 😇 😬 I think cryonics is great….for the people selling it!
https://www.nbcnews.com/mach/innovation/preserving-bodies-deep-freeze-50-years-later-n707856
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Far far from it. I just believe in the promise made to me and the one who made it.
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You know I was kidding, right?! I know you have a strong faith, which makes me curious why you are so interested in Parnia “proving” there is life after death. For one who seems as certain as you about your beliefs, I would think it would seem unnecessary and perhaps even irrelevant to “prove” it, yet you seem as disappointed as anybody else here when studies fail to prove it definitively. Why would you even care? I don’t mean this in a negative way, I’m just truly curious.
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So I can ram it down other people’s throats! Seriously, it would not make any difference to my faith, but I look at the world around me and I believe with all my heart mind and soul that if people understood there was a potential eternal destiny, then the world would be very different.
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I’m not sure if I “replied” in the right box! Anyway, my reply is above.
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Yes, it is a rubbish set up on this blog…never got round to improving it. Don’t know where half my comments end up!
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We can find the comments eventually! 🙂 I imagine it would be a real pain to transfer everything to a new site, but if you are thinking about it, I would recommend Substack. You might get a lot more followers there, if that interests you.
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It is something I have considered.
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I agree. However,if there’s really an afterlife as I hope there is, I think that would make cryonics a moot point. However, I’m still going to keep my cryonics arrangements in place.
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Hedging your bets 🙂
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Cryonics won’t work. The cold temperature will cause crystals to form between already shrunk cell connections. And vitrification basically puts your body inside a liquid nitrogen canister.
Save your money.
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I am of this view as well. I do not believe that soft tissue will survive in a viable format.
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Future technology like nanotechnology should be able to reverse it. Check out this website if you’re interested http://www.cryonics.org
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“Future technology”? I wouldn’t rely on it.
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Ben,
Thank you for pointing out that consciousness and intelligence are two completely different things. We’re too married to the idea (thanks to people like Marvin Minsky and Ray Kurzweil) of if it passes the arbitrary Turing test, it is intelligent and therefore must be conscious as well. Don’t forget also that in a binary system, you can just as well create a computer system with generative AI with water pipes and valves (fluid flow analogy saved me in my electrical engineering courses), yet we never think for a moment that the New York City plumbing system is conscious. It is algorithmic mimicry.
Regarding intelligence, have you read (and understood) Roger Penrose’s The Emperor’s New Mind? If you manage to follow it then we also have a problem for intelligence under classical physics. So we have a problem where both consciousness, intelligence, (and I am going to throw in free will) are not describable with materialism even though we know it exists.
By the way, predictions of conscious AI is nothing new, here’s one from 1958: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6_RVV3WwAAd5f8?format=png&name=900×900
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Hi Nic,
Thanks for the book recommendation. Will give it a go!
Orson.
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So, if I understand your motivation for wanting Parnia to provide proof, it is not for yourself, but for others, because it will greatly improve others in some way. I’m not clear on why. The large majority of Americans purport to be believers, so do you think their faith is not sufficiently strong like yours? How will the world change once Parnia provides proof? Again, just curious to understand where this is all coming from. Remember, after all, I’m a shrink! 🙂
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I am not American. In Britain most people are agnostic at best.
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For me personally I would get some measure of satisfaction in watching some of the more loud mouthed skeptics eat crow. Plus we’re wasting a lot of time, money, and resources on the brain produces consciousness hypothesis.
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But is there really a meaningful difference between Americans and the British in how they lead their lives and treat others? In other words, differences in moral behavior, which I assume is what you are hoping will change when you say that if people believed in eternity, “then the world would be very different.” If that’s not what you mean, please correct me. Here in America, we supposedly are “believers,” yet we are becoming more and more narcissistic, and have one of the highest murder rates per capita. I’m still curious to hear exactly what you think will be different in the world if Parnia provides proof, whether it be here in America, in Britain, or anywhere else.
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You make a good point.
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The idea that most murders in the US are committed by gang bangers is a common myth that is promoted here by gun rights activists. Only about 10% of homicides are committed by gangs (1st link), and the increasingly common mass shootings are almost always individuals, not gangs. Our crazy gun culture here most certainly contributes to it – you should see the awful ads targeting young men that make AR15 ownership look masculine and sexy. Recently Serbia passed a strict gun control measure after 2 mass shootings. A US reporter asked a politician there why they were able to do that so quickly when the US cannot, and he had a very telling answer: “We don’t have a powerful gun manufacturer lobby.” He is correct that the National Rifle Association is why we have constant mass shootings, as politicians are beholden to them. All this to say that I think environment and access to guns plays a huge role, which is not to imply morals have no role, but simply that it’s complicated and multifactorial. This view is supported by the review of research of the relationship between religiosity and crime (2nd link), which found “Studies…suggest a nuanced and inconsistent relationship between religion and crime.” It’s difficult to draw causal inferences because personality factors that influence criminal behavior also influence church attendance, as demonstrated by Ellis’s arousal theory research. I know we’ve had the “moral behavior and religion” discussion before, including some misinterpretations of what I said. So first, let me make sure you know I’m not saying that believers are any less moral than non-believers. But I also know people with very moral behaviors who are non-believers or agnostics, my good father being a prime example, and I would include myself in that category (agnostic), but I’m certainly imperfect, as you have said you are. Here in the US, we have a group of Christian nationalists who are promoting violence (3rd link). I know you condemned them previously. I’m not saying their religion is the cause, as it’s complicated and multifactorial, but I AM saying that their religious beliefs do not PREVENT them from immoral behavior. I’m not negating your own experience and its positive effects upon your life and behavior. I do hope that your vision of a transformed society for the better takes place should Parnia be able to convince people there is an eternity. However, even though I’m normally an optimist and try to see the good in people, I am doubtful that would happen. I also think it’s moot, as I doubt Parnia will ever provide definitive proof that non-believers will find persuasive. But I would be happy to be wrong on both counts! 🙂
https://www.gvpedia.org/gun-myths/gangs/
https://criminal-justice.iresearchnet.com/correlates-of-crime/religion-and-crime/#:~:text=The behavior of individuals with,social networks and social bonds.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8724742/
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Great comment. The paper exploring links between religion and crime is interesting. As you say, completely inconclusive and multi factorial, with some studies showing that religion is likely to lower crime rates, and others not. We get into the weeds on that one and seek to identify those who have had a truly transformative encounter with God through their faith, or whether they are just nominal believers, or going through the motions.
Unfortunately, I think you are right about Parnia. The way things are headed at the moment it seems unlikely he will produce data that will be sufficiently convincing to anyone who is remotely skeptical. But who knows, maybe he will. If, as many here believe, this is a real phenomenon, and they continue to study it and collect data, then it is inevitable that there will be a hit. Once there is then the research will increase and there will be more hits.
At the moment children are taught about material things in school, but if it became widely understood that our souls were potentially eternal, and that our behaviour may determine that eternal destiny, then lessons in schools may focus on this much more.
I can dream!
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Ben, your heart is definitely in the right place! 💕 Teaching any form of religion, even a “soft” one, would never be allowed in the US in public schools due to our doctrine of separation of church and state. Don’t forget how our nation was formed when so many groups fled Europe due to religious persecution! Some conservatives grouse about that but I don’t think even our conservative Supreme Court justices would allow it. I just listened to a podcast interview of British (University of Cambridge) psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen, who has done much research on the 2 types of empathy, affective (emotional) and cognitive (intellectual understanding of others’ perspectives). His work strongly suggests that affective empathy is linked to moral behavior. While psychopaths lack affective empathy, they are a very small minority of the population, and could never account for all the evil behavior in the world. He explains that the Nazis who carried out Hitler’s atrocities demonstrated great affective empathy for their loved ones at home, but they turned it “off” once they got to the concentration camps in order to carry out their “duties.” This is done through mentalizations in which victims are dehumanized, thus permitting such atrocities. Baron-Cohen advocates cultivating affective empathy in school children, and teaching them how and why it is so important to maintain such empathy and never dehumanize anybody. Now that’s a curriculum I think we could all endorse! Unfortunately the pandemic caused our school children to lose ground in academic subjects, and that is the only focus of schools right now. 😦
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Why reinvent the wheel…another bloke said 2000 years ago “love your neighbour as yourself.”
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Just to add, while your points are true to an extent, having experienced for myself, and witnessed in others the transformative effect of believing, I am of the still of the view that society is better when people believe in the true Christian interpretation of who God is and the afterlife.
What is happening in the US, and across the Western world is actually a breakdown of the historical Judeo-Christian belief and values system. I do not know the precise demographics of the murder rates in the US, but I suspect most of it is gang related and not carried out by those who have had a transformative encounter with the creator. I think if you were to examine the lives of those who genuinely believed fully that there was the potential for an eternal destiny,and had an understanding of God as a loving being (akin to the being of light), then their behaviour would be much less narcissistic or violent than it might otherwise have been. I apply this to all faiths, because I ave many from other faiths who have a very similar understanding of God as I do, despite the differences in teachings.
I take myself as an example. On the outside I am probably no better than those around me, but I know that had I not experienced what I did when I was younger and become a believer, I would be much worse, or possibly even dead when I consider the trajectory I was on.
But I do agree that on the surface the 2 societies are not hugely different, but if they continue on their current materialist paths I doubt either country will be good to live in by 2100.
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I consider myself fundamentally agnostic, I cannot 100% rule out the existence of a creator of the Universe and everything it contains, but for the moment its existence is unprovable. Of course, I don’t associate a hypothetical “life after death” or “life after life” as a proof of the existence of a God or anything like that, just as I don’t associate our physical life with it. And in the case of the existence of a God, it may not be just one, it may be many as the ancient Egyptians believed. And what will it look like? Maybe a man with a beard? Simple energy? It is absurd from any point of view, but as I say, I do not affirm its existence or non-existence 100%. As for religions, they are a big lie created to control and moralize people for centuries, I don’t feel any kind of respect towards them and their claims but of course I respect religious people even if I don’t agree with them
In summary, I do not associate in any way a hypothetical life after death with religion, under any circumstances. Most likely, all near-death experiences and other mystical experiences have a purely physiological explanation, and otherwise nothing to do with God or what a religion says.
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Why do you think religions were designed to “control” people? The issue of moralization is correct.
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It’s not that I believe that, it’s a reality. Fear is an element that different churches have used to dominate citizens. The natural fear of the human being to the future, to fortune, to death, the afterlife, etc. All of them areas in which, through that fear, religion could sneak into the minds of the faithful to manipulate them. Through the shaman, the priest, the priest, etc. That character, in each of the beliefs, who is said to be chosen to act as a mediator and interpreter between God and humanity. It is with this figure that religion convinced and manipulated society, promising some metaphysical benefits necessary to achieve peace and also a philosophy by which to live: an ethic and, in general, a culture with which to be able to function in the world. world. And all this with a reason like the rulers and politicians: to live comfortably. To free yourself from the pressure to create wealth. That is the secret of all kinds of parasites throughout history: the effort of those who do not generate anything productive to live off those who do. In the past, the warrior nobility and the clergy, and today, the political class and its associates, who obtain an almost free life without having to worry about competition, stability, profits or losses, because they convince the rest of society of the need for their support. existence and their legitimate right to manage the wealth that others generate. And so it has been for millennia.
As for the Church, the clerics managed to deny beatitudes to those who did not accept their standards. And although this is especially blamed on Christianity, it is something that all religions have done – for example, in Buddhism, which enjoys a good reputation, not offering alms to monks, or stealing from them, are considered very serious sins that are strongly punished.
Everything starts from fear, anguish and helplessness. And the great perversity that the clergy commits lies in the fact that they intimidate the faithful with visions of indescribable suffering that is closely linked to the faults and sins committed in life, so that all individuals accept the code that is transferred and taught in the Holy Books. The exploitation of the fear of death to achieve moral submission and its direct consequence, material and economic submission. It is that anguish of the future that clerics of all religions and times have used to dictate rules and duties of all kinds, as well as increasing offerings with which to enrich themselves.
I’m sorry but I’m very touchy on this topic and I’m sorry if I offend anyone, but I had to write it. I respect the religious beliefs that someone may have, but I totally disagree with the Churches, the priests and their dark claims for millennia
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Hi Anthony,
I can see that this is a subject you feel very strongly about, and I respect your well laid out, rational and thoughtful response. I even agree with aspects of your analysis that characterise certain practitioners of each faith as using fear to generate support and income. That absolutely happens. If I am to be completely objective, then I would be lying if Jesus didn’t present himself as a solution to an outcome worthy of fear – spiritual death, and even suffering after this life has ended. That is not what drove me to my faith, but I won’t go into that now, because I want to address your entirely legitimate point.
What if they’re right? What if there is something to fear?
I have nothing to materially to gain by saying these things…although I would never say no to donations through my buymeacoffee account 🙂 Some may argue that on the occasions I promote my faith it is to earn brownie points with God. There is now doubt some truth in that. Will it earn me an upgrade in heaven? I don’t believe so. Anyway, back to my main response, what if they’re right?
What if there is the potential for the soul, if it exists, to enter into a period of extreme suffering on leaving the body? If that were the case, then fear of such an outcome would be entirely rational, and you would want to do what you can to avoid it.
Some NDE accounts point to exactly this possibility. One piece of research claims that you are more likely to experience this if you identify as a Christian! It was not a good piece of research and easily discredited from memory. None of these accounts describe the fire filled pit with a Satan character, but they do describe a place filled with other beings doing indescribable acts to each other with extreme physical and psychological pain.
What if those accounts are genuine? I know Parnia is quick to dismiss them as not being genuine NDEs, but he does so with no evidence whatsoever. I think he hates the idea, and hates even more the idea that someone like me might use such accounts to drive people towards my faith. I get that. But what if, like you, he is horribly wrong?
Yes, there are charlatans out there using fear for personal gain, but just as there are politicians who use our desires for peace, or improvement in health and in education etc to get elected so they can gain office, often the underlying premise may have validity.
Here are some statements with binary answers (of course, you will not get past the first, but it is a useful exercise in logic nonetheless):
The consciousness either is or is not able to survive death.
(Parnia, who has studied this more closely than anyone else on earth, claims the evidence shows it does. This is supported by the testimony of tens of thousands who have had NDEs, and the scriptures of most of the world’s religions).
If they are right, and the consciousness does survive death, then it either can experience a place of unbearable torment or it cannot.
(There is evidence to support the former.)
If this place of suffering does exist, and it is possible that is the destiny for some poor souls, then it either is possible or it is not possible to avoid this outcome through behaviour here on earth.
(Various religious figures claim that it is possible through following ethical codes that demand we treat each other with love and respect as well as communicating with God)
There are people, including myself, who believe these things to be real, and genuinely want everyone else to be spared this destiny, and do whatever it is they do out of a desire to bring that about.
If the answers are no, then the fear and any solution offered is based on a false premise and you are justified to be angry. But if you are wrong, then your anger towards those who are genuine in this is misplaced.
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Ben
It is not necessary to be religious to be a good person in this world, despite all the obstacles we overcome and the bad things that happen to us.
Different people who have had near-death experiences do not speak of the existence of heaven or hell as we think of them, but of perhaps darker or sinister planes but neither with fire nor with the devil waiting for you. If life continues after death, it cannot be ruled out that we also take part of our problems there, of course.
I am not much of a defender of paranormal investigations or mediums, but even they comment that there are planes depending on the vibrational frequency that we take to the other side, some lower ones where souls are perhaps in more trouble and are there for a period of time. of indeterminate time, but sooner or later they will ascend to superior spheres like all the souls
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I understand what you are saying, and I don’t think we are in complete disagreement. I never said it was necessary to be religious to be a “good” person, but ultimately someone has to define what “good” is, and historically that has been religion through which a revelation of what good is, is passed to us from a divine being via a representative. Modern western definition of “good” is almost entirely derived from Judeo Christian teaching.
As for different levels of vibration or heaven and hell, there may be truth in what you say, but many NDEs describe a place that sounds like heaven, and far fewer (thankfully) describe somewhere a lot like hell.
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Again, this is probably the wrong box, since this comment is for Anthony, although I know that Ben will read it. It’s not really for Ben, though, because I’ve already told him this previously, and apparently did not convince him! 🙂 Anthony, Ben has said on more than one occasion that all morality derives its definition of “good” from religion, and modern Western morality is primarily derived from Judeo Christian teaching. However, he never cites any evidence to support his assertion, and the evidence is not on his side. Yes, there is a correlation, but remember that when A and B are correlated, there are 3 possibilities regarding causation: A causes B, B causes A, or C causes both A and B. The evidence is strong that evolution is what gave us our morals, and there is not just one line of evidence but many (anthropology, evolutionary biology, psychology, animal behavior studies, neuroscience). So if you believe that God initiated evolution, then in that sense, God gave us morality. But there is strong evidence that man possessed morality LONG before Judaism (originated in approximately 1800 BCE), or any other formal religion. Unlike Ben, I will provide supporting links below, and can recommend some books if the topic of moral development really interests you. I’m a psychologist, and that is an area of special study of mine. As you can see from the third link, not all scholars agree on the specifics, but they generally agree on the origin of morality. I suspect the reason some people find this disturbing is the fear this means morality is subjective; i.e., shaped purely by the expedience of what increases survival and procreation, precluding the possibility of objective moral truths. But the arguments of moral realists (3rd link) suggest that is not necessarily the case. So there may be objective “moral truths,” and this is supported by cross-cultural studies which suggest we all have basically the same moral foundations, albeit somewhat influenced by local culture. But our moral foundations far pre-date religion, and it’s unlikely man would have survived long enough to create religion without them.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2010/2/10/religion-hauser-moral-cognitive/
https://kids.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/frym.2016.00003#:~:text=Morality was selected by evolution,early in development [3].
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-biology/
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Everything on this blog is for “Ben” 🙂
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So Jesus, who was executed, along with many early christians who, according to Roman documents of the time were alive at the time of Christ’s ministry, and who would rather be fed to the lions, hung on crosses, raped etc than deny their faith, were doing all this to establish a mechanism that could be used in the future to control people?
Chinese christians are thrown in prison for years so that they can control people. Christians in Muslim nations are murdered daily so they can control those around them.
Yes, corrupt men do use religion to try to control people, but that is not how most faiths emerged.
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As Dennis Prager says, there’s “good religion” and “bad religion.”
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To Ben, Anthony, Sobshrink (I agree with the substack idea, I think you can “@” there). . .
Many people have a childish conception of Gd. They think of Him as some sort of “Sky Smurf” with a tyrannical bent, but this isn’t so because HaShem is essentially the Consciousness of the universe. Moreover, why anyone would want to attack one’s אמונה is beyond me. Belief in Gd helps one through hard times. It also offers emotional strength. A purpose, a future, and liberal principles.
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Meh. At least I’d be experiencing something. Sure is better then being hit with the eternal erasure button. The mere thought of deletion and completely ceasing to exist with no means of returning is outright terrifying and it renders life completely pointless because it’s like saying if a kid dies. An innocent child. They get deleted? A heroic fire fighter who saves lives gets killed? No Heaven for their sacrifice. You see the problem here and why it terrifies me?
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Yes, I can see why that would be terrifying, which is why the reports of NDEs give such hope. Also, from some of the accounts of terrifying “hell-like” NDEs, it seems possible to escape these places. Howard Storm’s NDE shows that.
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You are not alone. Existential anxiety affects every single person but you are just more conscious of it than most. If you want to know the empirical evidence for that assertion, read the book, ““The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life,” by psychologist Sheldon Solomon, et al. Death anxiety, which is mostly unconscious, affects nearly everything we do in life, whether we’re aware of it or not, and the evidence for that is solid. Not that that is any comfort, but it explains a LOT of human behavior! I try to calm myself by reminding myself I didn’t suffer before I was born and did not exist, so at least there’s that!
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Well Sobshrink I just don’t agree with such beliefs since they are fundamentally flawed and it is outright wrong. Imagine this. There’s an infant. A person who’s life even was barely lived. They tragically die. Should the infant have another life whether it be a reincarnation or an afterlife? Yes. They should. Erasure belief doesn’t bring comfort. It brings fear and anxiety.
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TranscendentSoul, I think you confused me with somebody else, which is easy to do on this website. I never know what box to put my comments in when they are directed towards somebody specific. I never said that there is no afterlife, nor did I ever say that erasure beliefs bring comfort, although I’ve heard that argument made by materialists. As a psychologist, I know that ALL humans have a fear of death/nonexistence, whether conscious or unconscious, and it affects our behaviors in ways we do not realize, for the most part. I’ve often recommended the book by Sheldon Solomon for those interested in the research that clearly demonstrates that assertion. If you’ve read my comments, I’ve always made it clear that I’m agnostic on both materialism and God, simply because there is no way anybody can know the truth on this matter definitively on an evidentiary basis, no matter what they claim. (That’s why religious beliefs are called “faith.”) If God exists, I suspect that s/he/it is not the anthropomorphic God of most religions. (We humans always anthropomorphize). But I’m rooting for the non-materialists such as Bernardo Kastrup and Donald Hoffman, who believe that consciousness is fundamental.
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I don’t fear death.
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Have you ever heard of the unconscious? I’m not a Freudian, as many of his ideas have not been supported by the research. But the concept that the unconscious affects our emotions and behavior was spot on, although he was not the first person to suggest it. Both St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas acknowledged the unconscious (first link). The wisest people recognize that you don’t know what you don’t know. I suggest you read the hundreds of studies summarized in the book, “The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death on Life,” (2 link) and tell me where the flaws are in the voluminous research. Nobody actually thinks they’re afraid of death consciously, including the thousands of research participants in their studies around the globe. But their behavior in response to death reminders belies it.
https://scitechconnect.elsevier.com/freud-discover-unconscious-processing/
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Of course I have heard of the unconscious. Who knows, maybe my unconscious does fear it, but my conscious brain most definitely does not. Quite happy staying that way.
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I’m glad that you don’t fear death consciously, the same as most of us. As I said to TranscendentSoul, my conscious fears are more about the process of dying and the potential for pain and suffering that may go with it. The problem with our unconscious existential anxiety is that it affects our thoughts, emotions and behaviors in ways that can be maladaptive and we don’t even understand where any of it is coming from, because on the surface, they don’t seem related to death. I don’t know you, so I will assume you have found adaptive ways of coping, but as a species, we humans engage in some very destructive behaviors that can be very harmful to self, others, and to the planet due to unconscious existential anxiety. So it affects us all as a species, and we need to understand it better, since it’s the first step in grappling with it. Covid was one big death salience event that shows just how tribally crazy we become when reminded of death.
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I have stated the reasons why I do not fear death. These are based on evidence which has been discussed here. They are not an adaptive process, no matter how much you insist they are. Facts + reasoning. How about bringing this back on topic and discussing evidence about NDEs. What are your thoughts on what the evidence for consciousness surviving death?
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In the past, you seemed to welcome non-NDE related topics that were nevertheless related to death, and you were the one to introduce this thread about AI, which doesn’t seem to be related to NDE’s IMO. Since you were unhappy with my apparently repeating myself, I won’t respond to your request about my thoughts on NDE’s, because that would require my repeating myself, as I’ve expressed those thoughts clearly before. You haven’t read the book I recommended on the research I’m talking about, so you can use neither facts nor reason to dispute the evidence there which so clearly shows what I’m talking about. Thus I can only conclude that you aren’t interested in learning those facts and reasoning about them, so I’ll sign off, because there doesn’t seem anything new more to say, and I wouldn’t want to repeat myself! 🙂
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I still can’t figure out what boxes to put these comments in! To yitzgoldberg123, I agree I wouldn’t put much faith in future technology to figure out how to preserve human bodies when they still can’t figure out how to cure cancer! Evolution only cared (and still cares) about getting us to the age when our children could have children, and that’s it. We’re lucky when we have more time than that! To Anthony, as an agnostic, I also recognize the points you make about organized religion, while recognizing Ben’s point is also valid, that it does not appear that Jesus himself, (or Buddha or any other religion originator) began with that intent. It’s people who corrupt religion, and that still happens and always will. But religion can also be adaptive and accomplish good, and if you’re interested in research on that, I would recommend the book, “The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion” by psychologist Jonathan Haidt. However, having faith does not by any means guarantee a person will be “good.” Teachings on heaven and hell have never been all that “good” at forcing “goodness” from many people for a variety of psychological reasons that would be too lengthy to explain here, but suffice to say, if the known threat of prison doesn’t stop people from immoral behavior, then the unsure threat of hell sure won’t. If you read Haidt’s book, you will understand the origins of our moral behavior, which is not religion, but evolution. Organized religion came much later and simply formalized and supported the moral foundations. As for the origins of religious belief, I agree that fear of death is most certainly involved, even when people are certain it’s not. (They don’t know what their unconscious is aware of and how it influences their conscious beliefs and behavior). If you are interested in the hundreds of research studies that have clearly demonstrated this, I would recommend the book, “The Worm at the Core: On the Role of Death in Life,” by psychologist Sheldon Solomon, et al. Although I’m not part of any religion, I think we all have a need for spirituality, and therein lies the conundrum. As you admit, nobody knows for sure how we got here and what happens “afterward.” I used to be a committed materialist, but more recently have been persuaded by philosopher of mind and computer engineer (and former AI employee at CERN) Bernardo Kastrup that materialism might not be true. Then all bets are off!
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That’s okay, sometimes I’m lost on where to comment!
As Dennis Prager says, there’s “good religion” and “bad religion.”
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Ben, Jesus himself did not re-invent the wheel; pretty much every spiritual tradition has taught the same principle (link below). That makes it easier to teach those values in schools, since it will never go against any particular religion’s teachings, and not even non-believing parents are likely to get upset. But you never know! I worked in schools for years, and we had some parents get upset if we allowed kids to read Harry Potter (teaching witchcraft/wicca), and things like yoga or meditation. We are very touchy about religion in public schools here, and you might suggest that’s why we’re in such trouble, because we don’t teach moral values. That depends upon how you define “teach.” Most teachers have a set of classroom rules, and schools are quick to punish for their transgression. But as a school psychologist, I can tell you there are plenty of kids for whom that is insufficient, as they have never been taught the coping skills for dealing with normal human impulses and feelings that lead to moral transgressions.
https://bahaiteachings.org/the-ultimate-spiritual-quote-love-thy-neighbor-as-thyself/
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Pingback: Aware of aware discusses AI and consciousness. – deathPoints.com
Ben,
Not sure if you’ve read recently this but apparently 25 years ago, Christof Koch (materialist) and Dave Chalmers (not a materialist) had a bet on whether consciousness would be solved in 25 years. I believe back then it was the whole synchronization of oscillations at 40 hz that Francis Crick theorized that was the popular materialist theory of consciousness that you don’t hear about anymore these days.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/a-25-year-old-bet-about-consciousness-has-finally-been-settled/
Anyways, 25 years later, today, the Koch clearly lost the bet, and admits it, although he wants to put another 25 year bet that it will be solved (materially) in another 25 years.
This makes me wonder, you have one side thinking they will find the final answer to consciousness, another side thinking you will find the final answer to the afterlife, all within our generation (forget the ~15,000 years or so of recorded human history). What makes us think that we are different than all our predecessors on these (so far) timeless questions?
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Hi Nic,
In the fifties, after discovering the DNA code, they said they would have an answer to its origins within a decade. Nope. Not even a viable theory.
Consciousness is the same. If consciousness is the result of material processes then we should be able to explain it, but if the consciousness is an eternal entity capable of existing outside of the material dimensions that w experience, then it cannot by explained by material means.
We already have lots of evidence for the existence of an afterlife, and absolutely zero against it. We just don’t have scientifically verified evidence.
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By “evidence,” do you mean purely anecdotal reports or is there more?
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Thousands of anecdotal reports by credible people, often verified by HCPs, and a handful of verified reports that occurred within the setting of studies set up to investigate NDEs.
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Nic, to answer your question, perhaps because we (humans) are egotistical beings filled with hubris? Or maybe because knowing the answer would fulfill a deep seated psychological need. In any case, I think Dr. Donald Hoffman’s (non-materialist) theory of consciousness is going down the right path. He is an idealist who believes that consciousness is fundamental and he’s seeking empirical support through mathematical modeling, which is still unlikely to definitively prove anything, but may provide the best evidence we can get. (link below). The thing I really like about Hoffman is that he freely says, “My theory is probably wrong,” and he predicts it will be replaced continuously by better and better theories as we learn more through collaboration with others seeking answers, and “that’s how science works.” He suggests it’s possible that as we keep peeling back the layers, we might never reach the inner-most layer, because the number of layers might be infinite. So that will keep the philosophers busy!
https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/25/1/129
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My problem with theories like Hoffman’s and the Penrose/Hameroff’s ORC theory is that quite honestly I do not understand them!
My academic specialism was in organic medicinal chemistry, and specifically the biochemistry around the translation etc of DNA, and how to artificially fool viruses into adopting altered structures. Through the knowledge I acquired there I was able to establish beyond any doubt that life could not have come into existence by natural processes and that the evidence points towards a creative intelligence.
Outside of that field of chemistry, I have needed to become an “expert” on a number of different areas within medicine, and have chosen to become an expert on research into NDEs. However, I have and never will be able to fully understand the mathematical basis for these consciousness theories. In such an instance I, and virtually everyone else who lacks the ability to work at post graduate levels of maths, are therefore forced to rely on the expertise of the scientist expounding these theories. After 25 years either in academia or interacting with it, I have found that such trust can often be misplaced, either because of bad science or false thinking and in some cases due to prejudice and bias.
I respect Hoffman for stating that he is probably wrong…that is refreshing, and exactly how science should be conducted…create a theory and as well as providing experiments to prove the theory it is good practise to also assume it is wrong to identify weaknesses.
As I have stated here before, the very “weirdness” of quantum mechanics points to it being the mechanism that lies at the heart of the interface between the material and non-material dimensions. The HOW of that is utterly beyond me, but perhaps one day Hoffman or Penrose and Hameroff, or someone else will elucidate that.
In the absence of a proven theory suggesting otherwise, it is perfectly rational to hold the simple understanding that the consciousness is an independent entity that is able to experience and interact with its environment (whether that be through inhabiting a physical body in tThis dimensions or being present in a different dimension along the lines of those reported by NDE experiencers, and described by the teacher that I follow).
Thanks for your posts Sobshrink, you bring an extra level of insight into a couple of aspects of our discussions that is sometimes lacking.
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Orson … “consciousness is an independent entity that is able to experience and interact with its environment (whether that be through inhabiting a physical body in tThis dimensions or being present in a different dimension along the lines of those reported by NDE experiencers, and described by the teacher that I follow).”
Hey, you know I’ve been following this Skinwalker Ranch Season 4 minutely and when you look back on it all, there seems to be some incredible intelligence located there in Utah (they have found the boundary of some large structure deep underground impervious to different drilling operations) interfering with the scientist-investigators. This intelligence “anticipates” what they do.
Chief scientist Erik Bard calls it thus, that it may not be … “a something, but a someone – a sentient precognitive non-human intelligence. Perhaps we are being surveilled. There is a ‘someoneness’ to the phenomenology.” Full interview with Erik who also suggests we take into account that an observer there is kind of co-effecting what transpires. Not quantum mechanics (observer-system relation) in a strict sense but it’s an interesting observation!
No idea if you’ve seen all this, but to me it seems there are incredible, advanced and different forms of intelligence co-present on Earth for whatever reasons, that can interact with us. And they have their own agenda too. But it can be an effect over a region and with people (this is observed at SWR). None of this makes sense unless we too have some small but significant extended consciousness. One proves the other and vice versa?
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I post alit on the consciousness studies Facebook group. It’s full of hard core materialists who claim consciousness is an ongoing process in the brain. They claim BDES are hallucinations as well. There seems to be no getting through to them. If anyone feels the need to, they can check it out and post articles on there as well.
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Thanks, Ben, I appreciate it. I don’t understand all the math of Hoffman’s theory, either. I hear your argument about just having to “trust” the expert one when doesn’t fully understand the person’s argument. Hoffman seems worthy of that trust because he is very open to hearing other’s critiques without getting defensive. I have listened to many, many of his YouTube/podcast interviews, and he is always very kind in responding to such critiques with explanations if he has them, and what the theory still can’t explain, and by saying it’s most likely wrong but is our best explanation at the moment, and will most likely evolve over time. Perhaps the reason he is so egoless is that he has been meditating for many years. Also, he’s working with some brilliant folks in math and physics. I think such collaborations in science are less likely to be biased because of feedback within the group to point out flaws, as the brilliant Daniel Kahneman has demonstrated. So even if I don’t fully understand his theory and recognize it’s a “work in progress,” I still find it worthy of consideration. I personally think studying consciousness will yield more “fruit” than pursuing NDE’s, although both are worthy of study, and perhaps both will always remain a mystery.
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Alan, no doubt there are some strange things happening at Skinwalker Ranch. (Yes, I watch it! 😬) Christina Gomez has interviewed all the people there on her podcast/YouTube shows, including Dr. Travis Taylor, NASA consultant and chief scientist on the Pentagon’s recent UAP tasks force. They all talk about how they think what’s happening there is related to consciousness, and how their own consciousness has been affected at times, including time warps, recently demonstrated empirically on the show with instrumentation. Maybe that’s why former owner of the ranch, Robert Bigelow, is now investigating life after death (link below). I don’t understand why Bigelow refuses to release his data to the current scientific team, unless he signed a contract with the Pentagon not to. I never believed in any of this stuff, but their experiments are observable and simply can’t be explained!
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Hi, yes I listen to Travis and also Erik very closely. Travis hedges his comments very carefully I always notice and mentioned once the national security implications of GPS systems over SWR being effected over a region. He’s told the US Gov about this. I mean, that’s a powerful attack method if a bad player could replicate this in a region, say, above a city.
In Erik’s interview above Erik said he is also briefing at a high level the US Gov what’s going on at SWR.
I saw the time anomaly in the electronics system in the balloon experiment in the space above the ranch you mentioned and really was shocked. Sorry to mention again but I have a uni. physics background and this was amazing. Space-time should be uniform in any region around Earth (homogeneous) apart from very minor general relativistic effects with *no* large time anomalies esp. in a very small region. Travis said it was the first time this had been measured near Earth and was gobsmacked!
Sure, don’t know why Bigelow keeps his data. I thought his essay contest was a great idea – so many studies emerged. Cheers!
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Yes, even a very small time differential could really mess up GPS – send you right into the river! Neither China nor Russia seem advanced enough technologically to do this. I didn’t know/didn’t remember about your physics background. So you can explain e=mc2 to me! 🤣 I’m not usually a conspiracy theorist, but you have to wonder just what our government really knows about all this. It’s good they’re sharing info, although I doubt it’s a 2-way street.
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Ok, E = mc^2! This is a kind of intuitive working out below. The full requires replacing an (x,t) space with an (x,ict) space and redefining velocity and force to get the relativistic energy of a moving object.
So, Newton worked out when an object moved the kinetic energy is E = 1/2 mv^2. The only energy an object can have.
No velocity, no energy.
But he also said something very interesting: Mass is the quantity of matter in an object. When you think about it this cannot change … m(0) below.
1. He didn’t know it but this is consistent with Einstein’s special relativity in which Einstein derived E = mc^2. Why?
2. Obviously an object not moving must have a resting energy
E(0) = mass x (some velocity)^2. You see here the form of this equation is the same as 1/2 mv^2 but also different.
3. A moving object will have a kinetic energy as well so its total energy E when moving is
E = K.E. + E(0). When it’s not moving K.E. = 0 and E = E(0).
4. On the left hand side, when you think about it E must also have the form … mass x (some velocity)^2.
5. What could (some velocity) be? Well, Newton could never have guessed this because it arises from requiring a velocity that doesn’t change when measured by any observer, no matter how fast they are moving. This turns out to be c, the velocity of light.
6. If we now do, using c = (some velocity) …
E = mc^2 = K.E. + m(0)c^2 where m(0) is called the rest mass of the object. m cannot be m(0), so mass must change with velocity. m(0) is constant.
7. This is now the correct formula for the energy of a moving object,
E = mc^2 = K.E. + m(0)c^2 replaces E = 1/2 mv^2
In fact, only one function … m = m(0)/(1-v^2/c^2) satisfies this (mass changes with velocity) so that when the velocity of the object is low … we get …
K.E. = 1/2 m(0)v^2 … Newton’s original formula. How correct is that!
8. Why c? Einstein realized there had to be a constant speed for all electromagnetic phenomena otherwise there would be EM effects in Nature that are not observed in experiments. But this essentially led to a new space-time, not the old (x,t) one.
Electromagnetic phenomena already have relativity in them (Maxwell’s equations) so it’s natural for objects with mass to also have relativity in them. The same space-time for both phenomena.
Hope that’s clear!
The US Gov? It’s getting very exciting with the very recent whistleblower stuff (David Grusch). Marco Rubio, Kirsten Gillibrand and others are gunning for open hearings!
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Did I mention I’m functionally illiterate in physics?! 😩 I can’t say I fully understand the theory, but I think I’m in good company in that regard, and I do appreciate your efforts! Some physicists say space and time are not fundamental, and that opens an entire new doorway. Feel free to share your thoughts on that. Yes, the Grusch claims were really explosive. But it’s all second-hand, and I just hope he can deliver. If none of his sources are willing to come forward, it will be non-evidentiary and may do more harm than good to future efforts. But at least he’s getting the Democrats and Republicans to cooperate with each other, which is kind of miraculous in itself! 🤣
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No worries but it’s not hard to think through it! It’s also accepted widely space and time aren’t fundamental. I haven’t looked deeply at Hoffman’s work on this but it’s intriguing – huge respect.
Re Grusch, yes, amazing and he has backup (people high up have backed him up) – also others have already testified and Rubio knows people who’ve directly worked on these projects. It seems Grusch will also testify in public hearings – latest I’ve heard. Possibly July. There’s also a new 2024 Intelligence Authorization Act with “eye-popping” wording on UAPs – released 3 days ago.
Physicist Eric Weinstein said not too long ago these options (he’s converted to the reality of UAPS).
1. It’s all a massive psy-op by the US Gov (for whatever reasons)
2. Everyone looking at this have gone collectively delusional inc. at the highest levels of government and science.
3. Something’s here.
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People keep waiting and waiting and waiting for the evidence. Kind of like with Parnia! Keeping a secret a secret is not an easy thing to do for even a few people, and that would involve at least hundreds of people, if not more. I have a hard time believing that our government is COMPETENT enough to do that. But we’ll see….
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I’m still waiting for them to release the documentry Rethinking death. It’s been over a month. When I click on the watch button on Parnia website they still have just the trailer for it. How long does it take to post it. Sorry just ranting alittle
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With the evidence showing a form of some sort of continuity after “death” giving us an illusion of death to hide the truth of continued life I’m less afraid of dying though still a bit paranoid. Really what scares me is painful death. I would like to stay young and healthy until I drop. I know many people who were in their late age even in their 100s being spry and youthful until they dropped. That’s what I want to be.
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Well unless of course aging is able to be reversed which I think is indeed possible and is going to happen soon in the near term.
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Not sure I would want to live here for longer than 100 years. Quite happy to move on.
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I would love it if that were true, but I remember my mother telling me that science was going to cure aging when I was a little girl 60+ years ago! My dad got cancer in the early 1970’s, and they said a cure for it was coming within a year or two. So I’m more skeptical that a “cure” for aging will ever be found, because I’ve been following the research of the SENS FOUNDATION that Paul mentioned, and it seems there are many different causes, and it’s even more complicated than cancer, for which we still don’t have a cure. Evolution is what shaped us, and evolution didn’t give a rip if we lived beyond our 30’s, the age by which our children were having children for most of our evolutionary history.
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I suggest looking at the rejuvenation roadmap on Lifespan.io’s site. There is indeed a growing industry for this sort of thing and when it comes to it. It seems to be a ripple effect that is caused by damage to the DNA and it leads to a myriad of other issues.
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I agree. I “consciously” fear a miserable long death, but death itself, no. Through rational analysis of the evidence available, I am certain that for some, there is eternal continuation of an individual consciousness in a heavenly realm, a smaller proportion may suffer a very unpleasant experience for an unspecified, hopefully temporary period, and another percentage may just cease to exist. This is what the evidence from NDEs points to, and is somewhat supported by the scriptures of various religions. I am hopeful for myself.
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I think everyone has can have an NDE but others don’t recall them akin to how someone cannot remember a dream.
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“Cease to exist”? Yikes!
You forgot about reincarnation.
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Another possibility.
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Cease to exist is why I have anxiety.
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So TS, I am going to share my experience with you and my interpretation of what it means, and why it is relevant to your anxiety, and I believe is the solution to your anxiety. You can do with it what you like, and others can ignore it, or get wound up because I am introducing my bias. Don’t care…my blog!
When I was 18 years old I had a dream. It was unlike any other dream I have had before or since. At the time I was not an active christian, and although attending a christian weekend once, and being invited to become a christian, I rejected it as I was in full on party mode. I did suffer from depression, although it was never diagnosed as such, and the centre of that depression was related to my struggles with the pointlessness of existence. Anyway, back to the dream.
In this dream I woke up in my bedroom and it was exactly as I had left it. This is the first thing that made the dream unique. Everything felt normal and real. Normally in dreams I find myself in a completely random and often bizarre setting, but in this dream my bedroom was exactly as I had left. However, I felt compelled to get down on my knees, and putting my elbows into the beanbag on my bedroom floor, I began to say the christian prayer which is basically: “Jesus, I am sorry I have ignored you, I am sorry I have done things that I shouldn’t have done, and not done things I should have done, please forgive me and come into the life and be my Lord.” The moment I finished the prayer I opened my eyes and the room literally disintegrated before me. All matter evaporated into trillions of tiny particles. I then became aware that I was in a new place, but could not see anything. It felt like a giant hall, and I was conscious of many other beings around me, but one in particular became the all consuming focus of my attention. Somehow I connected with this being, and it was as though every single cell in my body was set on fire with love…being loved and loving back with such an intensity that is impossible to describe. I don’t know how long it lasted, but if it had lasted forever it would not have been long enough given how perfect it was. Then I awoke, and the room was exactly how I’d left it.
When I first started reading about NDEs in my mid thirties, I was instantly struck by the way people described their encounters with the being of light in the same terms that I experienced this being. I knew they were describing the same entity, the one I call God.
Now, I didn’t become a christian straight away, but did about a year later, and once I did my depression left forever (not to say I don’t get down, just I never experience that existential depression). I had a long wobble during my years training in science, especially being surrounded by atheists, but I delved deeper into the issue of the origin of life and I am certain that science strongly supports the understanding that life was the result of intelligent initiation. Anyone who says otherwise is either ignorant of the core processes involved in translation of DNA, or are deceiving themselves and others. Due to my digging deep into the primary literature around this topic, my faith was strengthened. Moreover, I have had too many experiences arising from my faith to deny its truth and maintain intellectual integrity.
So, I have found the answers in the teachings of Jesus, and know them to be true. I am acutely aware that people who have no faith or different faiths have NDEs, so while I believe that belief in Jesus and what he said does lead to eternal life, as he promises, the evidence seems to contradict the teaching of some christians that eternal life is exclusive to those who follow him.
I am probably being a bit more open than I normally am because I am in the middle of our church summer camp. It is totally bonkers, and while the experience I had in that dream will never be replicated as long as I live, sometimes when I am caught up in worship, it comes pretty darned close…I touch heaven, God touches me. It is fricking awesome and for a while at least, drives all darkness, fear, anxiety, self-loathing, anger etc out of your mind and soul, and you are filled with light and a hope that is real.
I believe TS, that turning your heart and mind towards Jesus will one day rid you of this existential anxiety.
Take it or leave it.
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Why do you think a certain percentage “ceases to exist”? We’re they bad people, or atheists? Based on anecdotal reports, it seems that atheists can earn a spot based on their good deeds.
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The basis for this comes from the data from NDEs, and it is a theory based on speculation, supported by what my prophet says…namely that souls can die. Clearly some people do not have NDEs. It is claimed that memory issues are the cause of this. That is one possible explanation. Another is that some people have lost that side of them which makes them connected to the eternal and their future is indeed, as TS fears, to cease to exist. I speculate in my book that they have focused too much on the material and sold themselves to the things of this world (by the way I am somewhat hedonistic, so a little vulnerable on this one).
I think that many atheists are actually deep thinking people who have taken a strong principled position and I respect them more than the wishy washy people who don’t have a position at all because they have never thought about it and are consumed by the world around them. However, I hotly disagree with them!
I think everyone who comes here (or other sites like this) pursuing insights into this subject are more likely to have some sort of afterlife purely because it is on their hearts to pursue knowledge of this subject as they recognise how important it is. The vast majority of people are completely uninterested in the possibility that they may have an eternal soul, and that taking of it may be worth doing. I am concerned for their future more than passionate atheists (although the latter may have a sticky start to any eternal destiny if Howard Storm’s NDE is anything to go by 🙂 )
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Interesting idea there.
I think some people are uninterested in the afterlife merely because they have different personalities. I believe that if they live good lives regardless, they’ll find a place, even if the majority of us have to go through a cleansing process before we can attain a blissful paradise.
On the subject of atheists vs. agnostics. . . I think there are thinkers on both sides. Some atheists merely are that way because it’s “cool” whereas some agnostics believe what they believe simply because we truly don’t have any empirical data one way or the other.
There is an interesting concept that the soul that highly appreciates the material world will not want to leave it at the time of death and struggles to separate from the deceased body (or reincarnate). But I hope such a person wouldn’t lose their share altogether.
P.S., if I’m not mistaken, didn’t Dr. Sam Parnia once say that there is strong evidence indicating that everyone does indeed go through OBEs/NDEs but merely forget them due to medication and the process of resuscitation?
P.S. #2, is your “prophet” JC?
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Yes, JC is my prophet. Sam Parnia may say there is strong evidence that people forget the experiences, but he has yet to share that with us. In my book I spend a significant chunk of a chapter exploring this further.
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Sorry for the typo there.
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Amazing experience. Great to share.
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Indeed, I feel extremely blessed to have had this. It is one of the “pillars” of my faith, and why I would be a liar to my own experience if I didn’t uphold my faith…it was that prayer that opened the doorway to a different dimension…if that is was happened. Of course, it could have just been a dream, but it sure didn’t feel like it and felt more real than anything else I have experienced.
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Consciously, I have the same fears as you do – a painful death and infirmity and perhaps incompetence leading up to it. Unconsciously, I have no idea of the pattern of my existential anxiety, for obvious reasons. I just know that I have it, because I’m human and a voluminous amount of ingeniously designed research clearly shows we all have it whether we know it or not, although it affects our behavior in different ways. You don’t know what you don’t know! 🙂
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Aubrey De Grey and his organization called SENS FOUNDATION as well as the LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION among others, are working on ways to reverse aging. I hope it happens soon.
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There is also Lifespan.io also known as LEAF
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Did anyone watch the documentary Rethinking Death. If so is there any ew information on there
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No.
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https://www.kpbs.org/news/news/science-technology/2023/07/05/having-an-out-of-body-experience-blame-this-sausage-shaped-piece-of-your-brain
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I love it when science is reduced to sausage shapes! This is interesting, in so much as any article that shows that it is possible to induce a reality altering experience through chemical or electrical stimulation to the brain is interesting.
I’m not sure it adds anything new to our understanding of what is happening when people whose heart has stopped beating and report observing themselves and others from outside their body, especially when these experiences are verified by HCPs. None of these experiments seems to report this level of OBE, just a sense of altered perspective.
However, from a dualism perspective, what these findings might do show is that it may be possible to disrupt the mechanism by which our consciousness is “tethered” to our physical selves. This is a subject that has interested me for 3 decades, and the inspiration for for my first ever attempt at a novel back in 1995, and which forms the premise for my latest attempt to create a novel. I will stick to my day job though!
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No one knows its as simple as that. No one ever will, it’s a matter of faith, believe or dont, oblivion or eternity. Does it really matter.
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Maybe it does matter, maybe it doesn’t. Many of the prophets say it does matter. They may be wrong, they may be right, but sitting on the fence may not be the best place to be either. I am of the view that it can matter, which is different from saying it does matter.
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We seem to be able to work out by thinking and experimenting (e.g. NDE research by Sam Parnia and others) that it can matter (why can we do this, instead of just hitting a brick wall?), which to me implies something infinite touching the finite (us) for some reason. We can also choose a future destiny to some extent after life during this one? Why are things (reality) set up like this? Or are we all being fooled? (don’t believe we are).
I sense a rise in personal nihilism (social media is confusing everyone) with AI gaining prominence these days – maybe people are thinking this is the effing future and we’re like bugs to be taken over. Like there’s really something incredibly deep inside everyone (an immortal soul), no-one even knows about this anymore, yet it’s now techo. stuff gaining over people, as if to just think and be fooled we’re bio-robots. A forgetting of the basics of religion and the problem of identity re consciousness, the hard problem etc.
The media is constantly pushing this techo./that techo. angle and who gives a toss about *identity* when you can replace it with likes on twitter and the rest? Or one’s latest body operation?
Alan ~ can’t see anyone’s names above Orson – software glitch?
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Just checked your other threads – names not appearing! ~ Alan
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Weird. Not use why that is. Will investigate.
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Well done.
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This must be one of the first proven examples of telepathy interacting with AI because I didn’t actually get round to doing anything except uttering expletives at the WordPress settings section which were no use at all!
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Classic man, you scared it!
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Maybe I am it! Maybe this whole blog is AI generated.
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Got me thinking about Foucault’s The Order of Things (I have the book) where he brings up (a point that always haunts me) Nietzsche’s question “Who is speaking?” Not sure how it is resolved. A material outlook will cloud a spiritual voice trying to get out? AI has no spirit, surely no inner voice and I’m sure you and everyone here are not individual AI’s. So who is speaking? Apols., simple philosophy.
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Indeed it is, and of course while I am being a bit facetious saying I might be AI, how do I really know I am not, and that is the point philosophers make. I do not believe so, and while I do believe we live a constructed environment (creation) and this is not the real reality, something that NDErs often state emphatically, I do not believe we are AI. If we were, then there would still need to be external creative forces who created our AI entities, and would just push the fundamental questions about their origins another level up and we end up back at square one.
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Ah, I meant my philosophy was simple! You know, it’s why in all this, the whole Christian thing fascinates me, esp. the Crucifixion and seemingly very well observed Resurrection. He was clearly seen! It seems to confound the philosopher Slavoj Zizek who’s an atheist but maybe not? … I always check on his latest stuff. You may like this 2019 debate with Christian Jordan Peterson.
https://merionwest.com/2019/04/25/jordan-peterson-slavoj-zizek-and-the-atheists-who-believe-in-god/
This great line from Zizek … “In other religions you have God up there, we fall from God, and we try to climb back through spirituality, training, good deeds and so on. Christianity is totally different. You don’t climb to God. You are free in a Christian sense when you discover that the distance that separates you from God is inscribed into God himself … The crucifixion is something absolutely unique because in that moment of, father, why have you abandoned me?, for a brief moment, symbolically, God himself becomes an atheist, in the sense of getting a gap there. That is something absolutely unique. It means you are not simply separated from God. Your separation from God is a part of divinity itself.”
Zizek has also also said, “only a suffering God can save us”, and written a lot about this. The Christian God?
Like you, if reading right, I believe there’s a real substantiality to things that pushes the deep origin of everything beyond anything AI-like but also, obviously, a whole kind of “universe” is missing from science – the soul realm, a greater mind in reality etc. The usual, I guess, we can’t put our fingers on. Does Zizek nail part of this in his point above, I wonder?
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Alan, I read your latest comment below but can only post my reply here for some reason.
I like our idea and that of Prof. Zizek (I’ve seen clips of his debate with JBP). I think this same notion can apply to any religion, though, such as the destruction and exile of us Jews from the Levant (we are in the three weeks period of mourning now). After that horrific episode, many Jews felt abandoned by HaShem. Is that too not a sense of (temporary) “separation?”
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YG, maybe it is and does that apparent abandonment (people feeling abandoned) mean it’s not the right way to look at this. For me, the gift of free will could also be a clue of “distance” from God because there *seems* to be no interference at all in life. Logical answer … 1. There is no God, 2. A purposefully distant God that allows personal development but is all-knowing too.
Zizek’s “Only a suffering God can save us” I thought amazing because he seems to rule out other God types. The idea that God is right in there with the worst kinds of things that we do to ourselves and suffers with us. So you have the “distance” spoken of above but also that God is deeply there as well, suffering with us. That’s an amazing image … and if true?
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Thst took me a second to get Ben hahaha
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I imagine the official aware 2 study closer to publication as it pre print in resusation
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?scisbd=2&q=%22sam+parnia%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&t=1689057400682&u=%23p%3D83P9qdcFbokJ
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https://scholar.google.com/scholar?scisbd=2&q=%22sam+parnia%22&hl=en&as_sdt=0,5#d=gs_qabs&t=1689057400682&u=%23p%3D83P9qdcFbokJ
It seems Aware 2 at pre print stage for resusation
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Thanks Z. How come I did a search for Parnia and AWARE a couple of days ago and this didn’t come up! I even did a pubmed search Very frustrating. Right, will buy right now and write up a summary. Thank you!
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Super quick skim read of the paper I just spent over 30 bucks on, this line jumps out, and will be the the most relevant and is the answer to the question I have been asking since December 2019:
“Two of 28 interviewed subjects had EEG data, but, weren’t among those with explicit cognitive recall.”
This is what I suspected after the first pre-print earlier in the year, but this was not explicitly stated. Back to square 1.
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Hi Ben,
From my searching there always seems to be a lag between the paper itself and meta search websites.
Of the 6 who has REDs was there any EEG s?
Thanks
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No…that is the news, and as I hoped was in the supplemental information
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Interesting stuff
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New publication
https://www.resuscitationjournal.com/article/S0300-9572(23)00216-2/fulltext
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Thanks Peter, already downloaded and reviewing it. One very important update from this which I will discuss in my post in about 1 hour.
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