AwareofAware

Evolving news on the science, writing and thinking about Near Death Experiences (NDEs)

Two steps forward, one back

Samwise, once again, was first to spot this video. Initially there was some confusion as to whether it was recent or from last fall (2018), but Lucas, who watched the whole thing through, observed that he cited the pig study which was published two months ago. This presentation, made at Grand Rounds at NYU, was given in May this year, likely May 8th:

Link to Sam Parnia Grand Rounds May 2019

Now that I have had a chance to watch the entire video there are some very noteworthy points to make, in particular regarding the current status of the AWARE II study and a complete bombshell of a revelation which I will get to a bit later.

Firstly his presentation is a great review of the history and current state of resuscitation medicine, the area of expertise that Dr Parnia focuses most of his research work on. In particularly he spends time discussing the definition of death. Historically it was when the heart had stopped, there was no breathing and the pupils were fixed and dilated. With the advent of CPR in the 1950s this changed to about 5-10 minutes after the heart had stopped and CPR administered without the heart restarting. However, now it is clear that brain cells, the ones that will have the most significant impact on quality of life after resuscitation, could remain viable for many hours after “death” depending on the type of interventions administered from lowering body temperature to injecting magnesium. This is the area of medical research that Dr Parnia is devoting his greatest energy, and is already producing information that will help extend the period which a body remains viable after cardiac arrest. Bravo Dr Parnia, and we condone you for this great work. However, that is not the thing that gets us most excited on this blog/forum. So if you don’t want to learn all about that, fast forward to about 45 mins in when he starts talking about consciousness and death.

In this section he summarizes the findings of the AWARE I study, detailing the case of the man who had consciousness for 5 minutes and whose account was validated by attending Health Care Professionals (but not by the all important cards). That’s old news for us. He then mentions some of the materialist explanations of consciousness in general without getting into the details, and then the money slide:

half Money slide

This, according to Dr Parnia, is the enrollment status of AWARE II from April 2019. My first reaction was surprise that there had been so few new cases of patients surviving to discharge. In the presentation last year in which he showed data from March 2018, 38 patients had survived to discharge, this meant only 6 new cases. Then I started to look at the numbers more closely. Firstly the math is wrong. If you subtract the number who did not have return of spontaneous circulation (ROSC) from the total number recruited, you get 171 not 168. Big deal you say, well 171 happens to be the same number that had achieved ROSC on his slide from March 2018. Something fishy is going on. Either a lot more (all) patients are dying before discharge since March 2018, or they need to get a new statistician, or something else. It just doesn’t make any sense.

Then he threw this bombshell in:

whole Money slide

He casually stated that 10% of the patients who had a CA experienced seizure or seizure like EEG activity before ROSC. This is of course a potentially massive finding and contradicts much of what has been said before about NDEs. However, there is one key omission. There is no data on this slide showing numbers of patients who have an NDE, and even more importantly, there is no mention of correlation between reports of NDEs and this EEG activity. It is possibly the biggest teaser he has ever lobbed out to the NDE community.

Finally, Dr Parnia was scheduled to give another Grand rounds presentation focusing solely on consciousness during CA later in May. Maybe he shed more light on this discovery and managed to get the correct numbers on his slide…we won’t know until it is posted on the NYU site…Samwise will no doubt be the first to spot it.

Of course the skeptics will leap on the EEG activity, but until it is matched with reports of NDEs it is meaningless, and even then may be open to subjective interpretation. It is certainly hugely thought provoking, and at the same time frustrating until we learn more.

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124 thoughts on “Two steps forward, one back

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  1. Anton Efimov on said:

    It is very strange that he CASUALLY mentioned it, since it is a very important discovery. More so that nobody noticed these seizures earlier since EEG is a relatively old technology.

    Furthermore, what do you think about his decision to rephrase the statement of the end of Aware I? Does it indicate he no longer finds the experiences interesting/unordinary/mystical?

    And finally… what’s going on with the math!? The rounding of numbers is totally off and it is bizarre that such an unserious approach would be taken to this kind of presentation?

    What do you thing guys about the points I brought in this comment? I can’t really get my head around this information…

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  2. The “numbers” being lost due to arrests occurring out of working hours and not having the staff to attend is phenomenal. Allied to that, most of the poor souls die anyway.
    Secondly, some of the maths don’t seem to add up but I feel there will probably be a mundane explanation for that (hopefully ?)

    It is quite amazing that it’s taken another year to get the numbers up by such a paltry amount but I’m not particularly worried by that. It is what it is, an incredibly difficult study to carry out and the small amount of data he does get should be significant.

    He’s doing his best with the resources that he has (probably not enough, it never is). The talk he gave I thought was excellent. Parnia really has blossomed into something of a pioneering expert in this field. The depth and breath of his expertise and knowledge was obvious.

    As regards the significance of seizures (10%) in relation to NDE’s, there isn’t any. Don’t take my word for it of course, Dr Ernst Rodin dealt with this many years ago. He was a giant in the field. I posted this on a psi forum, so I’ve copied and pasted it here.

    Dr Ernst Rodin (now deceased) was one of, or was possibly the foremost expert(s) in seizures. He dealt with hundreds of them and never encountered anything resembling the symptoms of an NDE.

    “The essence of the manuscript under discussion is that the authors are impressed with the similarity between NDE reports and temporal lobe seizure symptomatology. There are, however, several points the epileptologist needs to address lest the non specialist reader accept the model as closely resembling the truth of the situation.

    The hallmarks and nuclear components of NDEs are a sensation of peace or even bliss, the knowledge of having died, and, as a result, being no longer limited by the physical body. In spite of having seen hundreds of patients with
    temporal lobe seizures during three decades of professional life, I have never come across that symptomatology as part of a seizure.”

    https://www.newdualism.org/nde-papers/Ro…55-259.pdf

    Edit: Maybe Ben could ask Parnia specifically about why the numbers are so low ? Just a suggestion.

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  3. Anton Efimov on said:

    It is really strange that he CASUALLY brought up the 10% of seizures. More so, that these seizures were never captured earlier.

    In addition, what do you think about his decision to reiterate his statement at the end of Aware I, omitting the experiences part? Does this mean he no longer considers these experiences out of the ordinary and/or mystical?

    Finally.. what’s wrong with the math?! The amount of new patients is weird and their rounding of percentages and numbers.

    What are your thoughts on these points I brought? I can’t really get my head around them myself

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    • That 10% seizures/EEG activity is a bomb that could debunk NDEs, but he didn’t make any correlations between that and the experiences themselves. The only way to know if they are related is to write doctor Parnia about it or wait for his next conference.

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      • Anton Efimov on said:

        Even if the seizures do correlate with ndes I can’t see how they can explain veridical perceptions like it was with Pam Reynolds or the 5 minute awareness from Aware 1

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      • Brain activity can explain most stuff. One senses can be active during the seizure, then false visual memories get formed after waking up thus bringing forth the veridical OBE component.

        Now, I’m not saying this is the case as the two things could be totally uncorrelated (afterr all, Parnia said nothing about it), but it is still something to be looked at carefully.

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      • Anton Efimov on said:

        I see your point and now that you also mention it, I find interesting that Parnia said nothing about the correlation, which lets me speculate that there’s none at all. However, as you also said, we cannot know for sure until we hear his explanation, if someone emails him and he responds, or at a conference

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  4. I’m interested to hear more about the EEG 10%. I did notice something about the pie chart on the slide though. The percentage breakdowns of 78% MVA, etc etc are exactly the same as in this abstract from 2015: https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1161/circ.132.suppl_3.16363. Of course, the percentages could have remained the same even with additional patients recruited in the past 4 years, but I thought it was interesting that these data may have been reported previously, and were not linked with NDEs in that older abstract.

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  5. I think these have been posted before: they both from last April 2019, one written by Sam parnia and one put up by him on his Twitter page:

    https://leapsmag.com/coming-back-from-the-dead-is-no-longer-science-fiction/

    https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies

    Both interesting

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  6. Eduardo Fulco on said:

    I think a point to know is whether these seizures with activity EEG are produced as a result of resuscitation work or not.

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  7. David on said:

    It might not be anything a Motion artifact in EEG….Mimics a seizure reading

    Google. Common artifacts during eeg recording NCBI.

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  8. David on said:

    I am saying what Eduardo said. This may be related to resuscitation.It is not fully clear here. But a seizure reading could be an artifact and that percentage seems to fit. Sure like to know what he said in May.

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  9. Hey Ben, you said on the last post in the comment section that there are different recruiting criteria between aware 1 and aware 2. If you have time could you let me and the group know what the difference is? It may be of interest to others as well. Or anyone else who knows.

    Thanks

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  10. David on said:

    I understand why he wants a controlled environment like Pam for future study.

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  11. David on said:

    O duh!!
    we know that in some cases there is EEG after CA which is all this chart shows! Unless I am misding something it just says after CA a spike. We have known this and its GONE after a minutte or less that is why the. Aware 1 was a hit.

    The news here may be tgat there is NO brain activity after CA in most people?

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  12. Eduardo Fulco on said:

    Anyway if the percentage would oscillate by 10% I think it is far from the almost 40 percent in the Aware I said to remember something of their cardiac arrest states (have some awareness) but did not know how to specify it.

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  13. These are two papers from April 2019. One written by Parnia. The other he posted on twitter. Might give everything in context

    https://leapsmag.com/coming-back-from-the-dead-is-no-longer-science-fiction/

    https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/life-after-life-does-consciousness-continue-after-our-brain-dies

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  14. Chad on said:

    I don’t understand, why are we still talking about hallucinations well into cardiac arrest? If no cpr is performed and there’s 0 heart beat (not just irregular weak heart beat), there’s no consciousness 1 minute into cardiac, full stop. This simply isn’t up for debate.

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  15. OK, seem to have got some of the regulars into a lather! We have covered EEG artifacts in rats etc in previous posts, and if that is what Parnia is alluding to, then sorry for the storm in the tea cup. It may well be that this is all he is referring to, and the more I think about his talk, the more I am inclined to consider the context of the presentation…i.e. an academic setting full of skeptics. Also, as I said, even if they were something different from previous observations (highly unlikely given as Anton said, EEG has been used in this context forever) and full blown “seizure” level EEG activity which would be way more than the tiny blips observed in rat studies, experiences from seizures are not organized and structured like an NDE…as we have discussed many times before.

    Sorry for getting everyone into a frenzy over a nothing burger…or should I say fishburger!

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  16. David on said:

    As I look at it he just says intra CA not throughout the whole CA so yes Orson nothing new…. but yes it threw the regulars into a lather

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  17. David on said:

    The leaps magazine is about as clear as can be said. And by Parnia himself. Just a month a go. I have a hunch it’s the controlled situation that he thinks he can get a better idea of what is happening. Also you see the pets.

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  18. werner Bartl on said:

    what do you think ? is parnia confident to have found something?

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  19. werner Bartl on said:

    When I read the article I think he is very confident that the mind is more than the brain

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  20. werner Bartl on said:

    I think if he had that, you could not keep it a secret anymore

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  21. Stefan on said:

    Ben,why are you deleting my posts? Other people might want to react too to anything that is being asked here, so I don’t think you should delete anything unless there is verbal abuse or off topic content, which wasn’t the case in my posts.

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    • Stefan the answer is because you asked it yesterday, and someone else has been asking…it has been answered many times in other threads and I wish to avoid any threads being cluttered with repeated questions, particularly the same question. Parnia is expected to report in 2020-2021 depending on how his study is recruiting. Before then no one outside of the study knows whether there are hits or not.

      I’m still puzzling over this talk he gave at NYU, the numbers were all out, and the whole EEG – seizure thing is odd. Seizure has very specific connotations, which include hallucinations, and the use of it in this context was very proactive in some ways if it is just background noise on the EEG.

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  22. David on said:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41470-019-00053-0

    Hameroff came up with his theory because he was so convinced of cases like Parnia

    Look at Word intra Ben . It means any EEG during CA At least that is what It seems to me and those are only 10 percent

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    • Chad on said:

      The issue with that is it still doesn’t explain consciousness. It might provide a mechanism for free will. Consciousness cannot be explained in 3rd person, not even assuming an immaterial soul that goes to heaven to meet Jesus will explain consciousness. Because 1st person exists, and anything in the 3rd person is only about behaviour/structure. I think all attempts to explain consciousness in some 3rd person manner will fail, consciousness must be added to the current view of reality as a new 1st person thing.

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      • If anyone can actually explain the Hamerhoff-Penrose ORCH OR models in lay language then please do. Quantum mechanics is beyond my current level of knowledge, despite going through the process of solving Shroedingers wave equation as an undergraduate chemist. It is so very abstract.

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    • I think it is like the rat thing going on, and not full blown seizure level activity. The key is whether it correlates with the NDEs. I suspect the 10 percent is purely a coincidence. Actually, if the latter is true then it will go to prove without any doubt that Brain activity is NOT producing NDEs. So good that he is collecting all this data. When he publishes the final results it is going to a truly seminal study…a potential watershed moment in science.

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  23. Chad on said:

    Just watched the video. Rather surprised to hear him say CA patients dont regain consciousness many hours after revival. This would be very against the NDE happens after heart restart skeptic argument. I feel he’s afraid to talk about NDE in more detail due to the very strong stigma, in neuroscience talking about consciousness is anything other than what the brain is doing will instantly destroy your career, seems like the stigma is present to a lesser degree in medicine too. He did say he witnessed veridical perception, so I don’t think he has a negative case with the hidden ipads (i.e. OBE right above the body but didn’t see the ipad, this would prove NDEs are hallucinations).

    I think it’s a waste of time to try to guess his mind. I did this many times with people irl, and almost everytime I got it wrong. Should just focus on the facts, and he did not say anything suggesting NDEs are hallucinations and mentioned he and his colleagues witnessed veridical perceptions. No need to get pessimistic, I see some of the other posters are even more edgy than me.

    Also he said brain activity is only correlated with thoughts. This is not true. Brain damage and drugs very strongly support thoughts and emotions are causally linked to brain activity. And everyone has first hand experience, get drunk or take mind altering pills (e.g. valium) and see your thoughts/behavioural dispositions change, no illegal drugs required plenty of legal drugs do the job. In my dreams I often do things that are so stupid and obviously wrong, but while dreaming I don’t get the thought “this is obviously a very dumb stupid thing to do”, I don’t get that impulse to stop what I’m doing. I don’t know other people’s dreams I do know in my dreams I’m usually a completely different person with completely different thoughts. Some will argue brain filters thoughts but I think it’s unnecessary, I think “access consciousness” (thoughts, mood, memory, google Ned Block A-consciousness) is produced by brain activity, “phenomenal consciousness” is the real issue and it beyond the brain.

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  24. Lukas on said:

    I personally will wait for the full results however I am now even more doubtful that he has a hit so far. If he had one he would mentioned it by now like he mentioned the 10 percent which is a normal update and Dr. Sam Parnia had no problem to mention it before the study is completed.

    As for the 10 percent it is interesting and it shows that there is more going on.

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    • Yes, very notable that he says “that part of us who makes us who we are, our consciousness or minds, does not get annihilated when we have gone through the threshold of death.” Or words to that effect. He is still standing firmly on the ground he always has. i am utterly convinced that the whole EEG/seizure thing was to show balance, and unless it correlates with those who had NDEs it is meaningless. Funny how the CBC interviewer moved on as soon as Parnia mentioned consciousness surviving death,

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      • Yes I agree. Maybe the entire NDE thing more puzzling and odder than anyone thought. Maybe it beyond the physical vs idealism and maybe the likes of Hylomorphism (which can roughly be ascribed to traditional Christian thought maybe as an example but that my own thoughts upon it and nothing more then that). Going off topic slightly but if you look at shared death experiences (SDEs) and compare them to NDEs, they would occur to people with what you would imagine have normal brain states, well I think it would indicate it matters not what brain state the brain is in, but the mystical (for lack of a better collective word of SDEs and NDEs) experiences will occur anyhow, pointing to a possible independent mind entity. But that just a personal perspective.

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    • Parnia says the same thing every time, the part that makes who we are does not become annihilated, the kid also called Sam with bright lamp NDE, aware 1’s 5 minute veridical perception. I’m getting very frustrated by him.

      Ben I don’t fully understand the Hameroff Penrose either, it seems to say collapse results in conscious experiences and the collapses happen every so often in microtubules (on the order of pico seconds). It does not explain consciousness, merely pushes the hard problem away from computation in the brain to the measurement problem. If you want to know more google Roger Penrose, Henry Stapp, Stuart Kauffman, these people are all saying consciousness/free will have something to do with quantum physics. I’m sure it’ll never explain subjective experience, because of 1st vs 3rd person I thing I mentioned before. Ed Witten also agrees with me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUW7n_h7MvQ. If I was being completely rational and not want afterlife so much, I’d take the mysterian view like Witten, seems like the only rigorous view (lets be real, NDEs are very hard believe even if parnia got 10 hits, we learn from this cruel world nothing good ever happens and things too good to be true always are)

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  25. David on said:

    I have a friend who is a molecular biologist and told me tge Aware 1 result is a stunner no physical biological explanation and solid research. He had a near death accident but it was near his heart was going. Here is what he told me . He was pulling out of a parking lot and the next thing he knew it was 3 weeks later. Even though he had been alert and talking with people during that time he had no memory. ……That is why these are so amazing. Even if you experienced something you should forget it if you survive. Another point Parnia has made

    As to Hameroff. I like to post things to show Parnia us not totally alone in Science though its usually physicists nit biologists.

    Hameroff inbsimpke language seems to be close to Parnia who has suggested a sort of consciousness field and the brain is more like an antenna.

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    • I suspect quantum mechanics may somehow lie at the heart of how our consciousness works and interacts with the “world” around us (let’s face it is all just mirage created by electrons buzzing around nuclei which themselves are determined by quantum mechanics), however I do not believe QM explains where the consciousness comes from and what exactly it is. If the brain is the host organ then QM is the mechanism by which interactions occur.

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  26. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3923147/

    This is a 2014 Paper by Greyson on OBEs during seizures. It seems that on 100 patients 7% reported some form of OBE, but none of them scored a 7 or more on the NDE scale. It also clear that not all seizure events produce an OBE.

    So while there appears to be some form of correlation between OBEs and seizzures, the datas are really interesting as the 10% seizure activity shown by Parnia wouldn’t explain the 10% NDEs (after all, only 7% percent of seizure resulted in an OBE) and most importantly they never gave rise to a true NDE. it is also curious that nobody in the Greyson study reported meeting dead relatives or friends during their seizure induced OBEs.

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    • When I worked in epilepsy a long time ago OBEs were something I heard about. There is some logical sense to having an OBE without other elements of an NDE if you have a seizure since your conscious is being messed with and potentially hopping outside for a minute but you are not dead, so no need for a life review.

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    • Chad on said:

      There’s also the issue of fake OBEs, I have OBEs sometimes when waking up from sleep. They are very unclear and weird things are everywhere. Showing obes during seizure and temporal lobe stimulation (e.g. that olaf blanke who tried to debunk ndes) are hallucinations won’t prove anything. Like Greyson said by the same reasoning everytime you hear music in your head you must be hallucinating it.

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      • Exactly Chad. For me OBEs with seizures is possibly supportive of NDEs being a real phenomenon. If they could prove they were genuine OBEs that is, but unless they devise a similar experiment for people with epilepsy who have frequent OBEs then that it will remain a moot point.

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  27. werner Bartl on said:

    I do not quite understand this radio interview, he says that I will not be destroyed but he does not talk like that in the videos, why?

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  28. David on said:

    Different audience

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  29. werner Bartl on said:

    Why does Dr.parnia speak positively in some interviews because of consciousness without a functioning brain, I would be interested in your opinion

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    • In his video conferences he is talking to academics and fellow medics, he has to keep a professional and serious tone. Speaking about consciousness after death, without showing any hits (and he can’t do that until the end of the AWARE II program, if he has any), would damage his image. He can speak more easily during interviews.

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  30. werner Bartl on said:

    Thank you RAF

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  31. Kano on said:

    Just and observation.
    I’ve noticed on this blog named Victorianeuronotess, is that a commenter mentioned an OBE written by Susan Blackmore, saying that she believes that all OBEs and astral realms are brain-based. I’m pretty familiar about Susan Blackmore. Victoria and her supporters were pretty quick to accept that as proof that spiritual experiences as a whole are mental illnesses, neurons firing, ect. But they seem to ignore that her experiences might not mean that all experiences are hallucinations. Maybe it’s just me.

    I know some people can get overly excited when OBE/NDEs and other phenomena seem to prove that there’s an afterlife, spirits, souls, ghosts, ect. Which is why healthy skepticism is important.
    But some materialists and atheists can get overly excited without a second thought as well, when something seems to prove that it’s all brain-based, such as when OBEs/NDEs are artificially induced in a lab from the temporal lobe or other parts of the brain, mimicking the experiences using virtual reality simulation glasses, an atheist or skeptic has a spiritual experience, but dismisses or links it to being mentally ill, stressed out, on drugs, or being severely sick, Olaf Blanke, Steve Novella, Michael Shermer, and Keith Augustine’s articles and blogs, ect. And these three articles:

    https://mappingignorance.org/2019/03/18/why-people-believe-in-the-soul-1-out-of-body-experiences/

    https://mappingignorance.org/2019/04/01/why-people-believe-in-the-soul-2-near-death-and-mystical-experiences/

    https://mappingignorance.org/2019/04/15/why-people-believe-in-the-soul-3-how-does-the-brain-perceive-itself/

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    • Chad on said:

      I’ve already posted, not all OBEs are the same. I’ve had OBEs while waking up, obviously hallucinations as things are very blurry and weird things are everywhere in my room. OBEs like Blackmore’s and Blanke’s experiment are also hallucination, they dont have the clarity of OBE during cardiac arrest. It’s very silly to think just because you got a hallucinatory OBE, all OBEs must be hallucinations, people lucid dream walking about all the time. If they actually induced a full blown hyper lucid NDE with all the life review/beings of light/deep lessons, that’ll be something. But they’ve never done this, the best they did is DMT and syncope and there are very strong differences. The name you mentioned are all very staunch materialists with a grudge again NDEs, I suggest ignoring their worthless articles. If your really serious about reading about consciousness from materialist perspectives I suggest e.g. Christof Koch, Galen Strawson, David Chalmers, they all don’t believe in afterlife but they don’t have a grudge against it like with so many staunch materialist morons. Also Blackmore has been caught flat out lying about her research in parapsychology and admitted it.

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    • Chad on said:

      Just skimmed the end of the article. The rubberhand illusion debunks OBEs, SERIOUSLY??? These staunch materialist idiots make arguments like young earth bible thumpers.

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      • The rubberhand thing is not really new. Like I said, atheist/materialists get a little too excited when something seems to debunk them. Same with believers accepting NDEs.
        You want to see someone who sounds like a bible thumper? I no longer follow him. He’s made it quite clear that he’s a huge Dawkins fan. http://www.sillybeliefs.com/blog020.html

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  32. Kano on said:

    I forgot to post and example of someone getting too excited over OBEs being proof that an astral world exists. A later comment called her out on that. Other than that, interesting article:

    https://www.learning-mind.com/out-of-body-experiences-are-scientifically-proven-to-be-real/

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  33. David on said:

    Well they have to be corroberated like Pania is doing. But you just gave a list of the usual suspects who have their minds made up just like the fundie Christians. The regulars and Orson know that well.
    I mention UFOs again because the Senate was briefed in secret. I dont think they are ETI or if they are they like the ADE are something more supernatural.

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  34. Yes. You’re right. They have made up their minds. And they’ll always try to come up with things along the lines of “if OBEs are not hallucinations and illusions, why does the experiencer see in a birds-eye view? Why not from a point beside them?” And any other excuse to avoid looking any further.
    However, I do agree that the thought of atheism/materialism being dead or collapsing is wishful thinking. Religion and paranormal beliefs isn’t collapsing or dead either. In fact, atheism might be growing. But it’s not “arrogant or being full of oneself”, or the same, as saying that it’s time to move beyond materialism.

    And this complaint,
    “There are a few rare books disputing NDEs as some kind of afterlife visit, while there are dozens more books affirming NDEs not being illusions. The ones that dispute NDEs have lower ratings than the ones accepting them.
    This has more to do with what people need and desperately want to believe than the strength of the argument” is not going to cut it either.
    I’ve seen these types of complaints all the time. Mainly from amazon reviewers and John Ateo’s site. ( sillybeliefs.com ) I guess you could say that he’s a passionate atheist who vehemently attacks anyone, even atheists and agnostics, who even remotely disagrees with him, Dawkins, and the atheist/materialists worldview. I used to follow him.

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  35. David on said:

    Shermer was a Climate denialist too. Now he is more a climate minimizer like Canada which may be worse. Canada says gee we have a climate crisis but lets keep buildling oil pipelines

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  36. Kano on said:

    I’m agnostic about the paranormal and things. Sometimes I’m about 70% convinced that paranormal phenomenon is real. Other times, I’m about 30% and less, depending on the evidence and how strong it is. And I actually do appreciate the skeptics I encounter and skeptics that may or may not post here.
    Healthy skepticism is good to learn, grow, and get out of one’s comfort zone.
    What good is it to have a boring, nonproductive echo chamber that agrees with everything you say, and only tells you the things you want to hear? Maybe paranormal phenomena exists, maybe it’s all too good to be true and materialism is correct.
    And I must say if it weren’t for the skeptics ( yes, the aggressive ones too, like the JREF and SGU ones ) I’ve encountered, I’d still be a naive wide-eyed believer, thinking that hearing a floor creak, seeing a bright light when near death, and people having a more positive outlook on life and no longer fearing death after being revived from the experience, was irrefutable proof that ghosts and an afterlife exists. Now I know better.
    So I appreciate that. I laugh pretty hard at how I was back then.
    But I can tell when someone is being a healthy skeptic, and when someone is just denying and dismissing everything, sometimes vehemently, that doesn’t fit one’s worldview or ‘mainstream science’. Which is what Jerry Coyne, John Ateo, and this blogger does:

    https://www.google.nl/amp/s/bbnewsblog.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/just-face-the-facts-there-is-no-soul-there-is-no-afterlife-its-your-wishful-thinking-that

    https://www.google.nl/amp/s/theconnectome.wordpress.com/2015/07/02/science-pseudoscience-and-souls/amp/

    You can’t just throw the words woo-woo, pseudoscience, bogus, BS,( his favorite word ) accuse someone of wishful thinking, and “sneaking religion and the supernatural and bringing us back into the dark ages” every time something doesn’t fit reductionist materialism, or when someone uses the word ‘soul’. Nor can you call people and agnostics “creationists and true paranormal believers disguised as scientists and pretending to be skeptics”.
    I understand that they’re trying to promote critical thinking, because there are a lot of credulous people in the world, but that does not justify name-calling, ect.
    Contrary to what Jerry Coyne and John say, science and rational neuroscientists who used to be extremely skeptical about the paranormal, have not gone “off the rails into superstition and Crazyland”, and agnosticism is not “weak-atheism”. John’s website homepage says “examine the evidence. Start thinking for yourself!” Well, John, that’s exactly what I’m doing, but perhaps I’m not doing it properly, because I’m open to a world beyond the physical.

    Like

  37. Kano on said:

    Krishna Kumari Challa is another perfect example of a hardcore materialist.

    https://www.quora.com/profile/Krishna-KumariChalla

    https://kkartlab.in/m/group/discussion?id=2816864%3ATopic%3A82827

    https://kkartlab.in/m/group/discussion?id=2816864%3ATopic%3A89958

    https://kkartlab.in/m/group/discussion?id=2816864%3ATopic%3A144380

    https://www.quora.com/So-many-people-still-believe-in-ghosts-Where-have-we-gone-wrong-with-our-education-policy

    Her responses to all paranormal and supernatural questions on Quora all answer that “science has explained all spiritual experiences. Ghosts, afterlives, and souls are fairytales. Science is slipping and people need to be educated with a tougher educational policy. Embrace real hard science, think critically, and get rid of superstition. Science is interested in facts, not crazy fairytale claims.”
    Someone asked “what would you say to a ghost”? Her response was “Ghosts don’t exist. Why am I hallucinating? What’s wrong with me?” It’s all anecdotal and misinterpretation. That definitely says that she’ll never accept any evidence, even if it’s right in front of her face, unless it’s physical evidence she can hold in her hands.

    Like

  38. David on said:

    Personal attacks are always a sign you dont have a real argument.

    Like

    • Tell that to Freethought Blogs and the Indian version Nirmukta and forum ( which is now a very slow forum ).
      They’re always crying about ‘woo promoters quack/cranks’ Dean Radin, Kastrup, Sheldrake, Carl Jung, Noetic, ect.
      So much for ‘rationality’ and having ‘free thoughts’. 😉

      Like

  39. Chad on said:

    For Kano
    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Michael_Shermer#Accusations_of_sexual_misconduct
    I can’t remember the Blackmore link, I read it in a few articles and know her reputation dropped like a rock. Her results in parapsychology were inconclusive but she rigged the data to be negative, an article by Robert Mays explained this in detail.

    Btw Shermer’s radio shook the foundations of his beliefs https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/anomalous-events-that-can-shake-one-s-skepticism-to-the-core/?redirect=1. For someone so ardently opposed to NDEs and denying all highly credible NDE research by medical professionals as pseudoscience woo, having a faith conversion after a random radio anomaly – obviously due to humidity/temperature – is nothing short of amazing. This is how you know people like him will immediately believe when they have an NDE themselves, regardless of whether they had bulletproof veridical evidence or not. They are motivated by insecurity, desire to conform to mainstream thinking, they are not motivated by evidence. Shermer’s type cannot think for themselves, and can be easily fooled if you spoof some evidence for them to witness in person (radios, rabbit out of hat, etc).

    Like

  40. Chad on said:

    Why am I getting a comment pending? Ben did you ban me on accident?

    Like

  41. David on said:

    Slme of these athiests are far far right funded usually be a certain billionaire in love with Ayn Rand. The American right is a bizarre combo with the athiests leading around or blackmailing the fundies. Google Jerry Falwell jr. And the wife and poll boy pictures.Did not know that about Shermer.
    Oh as to quacks and promtors….well it rakes one to know one not really but we will always have them. We have NDE books. There was a book about a little kid who was not in fact dead who told a story. That wasva case where the fundies argued with each other. It was so not related to Parnias work its not something we discuss here.
    The CIA thought there was an anomoly in its para research but found it to sporadic to be of use or a threat. In other words some people have an insight then its gone.
    I think they felt the same about UFOs until now…..

    Like

    • The same can be said of the far far left. Or, veer a little less to either side and you will find people that are slowly beginning to use NDEs to push their particular religious tenets forward (including the New Ageish “spiritual but not religious” and, unfortunately, those that cite “hellish” experiences as proof that the heaven/hell dichotomy is a thing). It’s all part of human nature.

      Like

  42. So basically the seizures amount to nothing and it could still be immaterial. That’s what I’m gathering from this whole discussion.

    Like

  43. Kano on said:

    Yep. It can go both ways. The new ageish ones are pushing NDEs as proof, and skeptics and atheists are saying it’s all hogwash, false memory imprints, and the brain and people trying to make sense of it all.

    However, I’m not buying the card of “it’s just for better survival and reporduction rate, a coping mechanism for suffering, life’s obstacles and death, something that gets us out of bed in the morning, the result of being genetically hardwired in our brains from evolution and to believe, accept, and have those ‘spiritual experiences’, they’re not visits to the other side”, from Quora and Matthew Hutson anymore. Nothing new from any of them.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/201207/your-sixth-sense

    https://www.quora.com/What-are-atheists’-thoughts-on-Heaven-in-light-of-reports-of-people-with-near-death-experiences-NDEs-claiming-that-they-have-seen-Heaven-angels-and-Gods-What-makes-atheists-remain-atheists-in-spite-of-this

    Nor am I falling for the “Paranormal believers are a lot likely to be unemployed, and poorly educated than college students with good grades and have weak reasoning abilities, and the beliefs/experiences are a result of fantasy proneness, stress, childhood trauma, illusory correlation, and apophenia” either,
    because there are clearly many well educated, employed, and rational people that are open to these things. I’m not suffering from childhood trauma, and I’m pretty sure that not all paranormal, NDE researchers, and authors, are suffering from it either.
    Some of them suffer from childhood trauma and some are unemployed and have poor education and reasoning, yes.
    But this is pretty much the reason why I don’t use Wikipedia as a reliable source. Some things of the things in the article seem inaccurate. And Matthew Hutson seems to be quoting Wikipedia, and other many other ‘skeptics’s to try and dubunk it all.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/285744638_Paranormal_beliefs_An_analysis_of_college_students

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paranormal

    Like

    • Those are classical materialist atheist insults, thinking that they alone have access to culture and all others are stupid or ignorant.

      Bruce Greyson, Raymond Moody, Kenneth Ring, Laurin Bellg, Sam Parnia, Peter fenwick, Penny Sartory, Van Lommel, and many others, are they all superstitious ignorants? Are they all stupid?

      Italian medics are researching NDEs too, like Enrico Facco. This man is a specialist in neurology and anesthesiology with a deep understanding of philosophy too, is he ignorant? He is one of the best known medical experts in Italy, writer of various books on the subject of mind and philosophy entagled with medicine.

      Militant atheist just like to think that they are smarter than everybody else.

      Like

      • Kano on said:

        Exactly. I have a feeling that the Wikipedia editors twisted that fact or whatever. The college education, better reasoning skills, and critical thinking skills being linked to people who don’t believe or accept paranormal phenomena or have spiritual experiences, rather than the ones that do, is ridiculous.
        That association’s been popping up in research papers, PsychologyToday, atheist blogs, ect. And it needs to stop.
        And what’s even worse, is if you are a former skeptic, and currently accept those things, you “weren’t being skeptical enough”, or “you need to be even more skeptical about former skeptics. They’re trying to gain credibility”.
        Sharon Hill is not feeling the whole former skeptic thing.

        https://idoubtit.wordpress.com/2014/06/05/i-used-to-be-a-skeptic-but-then/

        Like

  44. David on said:

    You outside of the US need to know about the UFO situation here. The militany athiest crowd is being ridiculed because the evidence is overwheming. Not only has Trump been briefed they are real but so has Congress . So this is bipartisan . Senator Warner was and looked very concerned. Also I posted the need to not just look at ETI but at Valles Interdimensional hypotheses which is as spernatural as the afterlife. My tweets have been liked by peopke that know more than I do.
    These things do n onphysical things. The military is confirming all this . The former head of the program says there is a lot of classified stuff that he cant discuss yet. That might explain Senator Warner. I might be reading this wrong but I never expected to ever see what I an seeing.

    Like

  45. David on said:

    Oh almost forgot the materialist attack has been same pattern and they are really looking foolish. . Its a drone no there is no propulsion. …its a fake no militatary and New York Times confirm chain of command….the navy pilots are somehow wrong…and then they began personal attacks on Harry Reid….well Reid is fighting cancer and has had much tougher political opponents than this personal insult crowd.
    Thought you would find it interesting because its the same sort of stuff they have thrown ar Parnia. Hopefully he takes advatage of this to really smack them down.

    Like

    • Kano on said:

      Lol.
      It’s just like when Gerry Woerlee was going around posting very lengthy comments on the Amazon reviews section on almost every single book involving NDEs, Raymond Moody, Sam Parnia, and an afterlife trying to debunk them.
      Even the other Amazon Reviewers got tired of Woerlee doing that and one of them told him to give it a rest. Which was hilarious.
      And Woerlee isn’t the only one who does that, Parag Jasani does that too, except not on Amazon but on other websites ( and Quora ). Just google his name, his “new DOS model”, and Mechanisms of the Minds book that seem to “explain how consciousness is generated by natural selection to survive and reproduce, explains dreams, why we’re here, ect. ” Which sounds pretty much like Daniel Dennett

      But in the end, I guess it doesn’t matter how many phds and degrees in science you have, how many schools and colleges you went to, how much education you’ve recieved, or a hardcore skeptic materialist since childhood or the teen years. If you even remotely accept paranormal and spiritual phenomena being more than just in your head, you can forget about being taken seriously in mainstream science, or be known as a peron who “believes in things like Bigfoot, unicorns, and fairies”.

      Like

  46. Quora is not a reliable site to ask questions related to ADEs. It’s filled with idiots like Ian Sawyer who dismiss any and all proof that go against their claims.

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