Early results from AWARE II?
Thanks Eduardo for sending the link to this article last night.
The article starts out moderately interesting, discussing the case of one woman’s NDE thirty years ago, then mentioning Jeffrey Long’s database, and Eben Alexander. Then it moves to our favourite NDE researcher, Dr Sam Parnia. Of course our interests are piqued, then our eyes pop out at this bombshell:
“Parnia is in the midst of working on a follow-up study, called AWARE II, with a public announcement likely in the next six months.”
So I have mentioned in past posts that the study is planned to finish recruitment in 2020. However, those who are close followers of this blog, and the comments sections (which are often more interesting than the posts as they contain some excellent observations etc from fellow NDE “nerds”), will have noted that I have often said if there were two or more verifiable hits (i.e. fully documented NDEs with confirmed OBEs – namely the subject seeing the image on the LCD screen), prior to complete recruitment, then I suspect Dr. Parnia would go public.
Could this be what that announcement will be about? Of course, we will not know until it is actually announced, but if it is, then this will be the event we have all been waiting for ever since AWARE I was first mentioned way back in the mid noughties. This will be the moment we see a permanent paradigm shift in scientific thinking, and methodological materialism will be dead.
I am very hopeful. I noted last year that there was suddenly a big upsurge in activity from the AWARE study team. At the same time, they stopped communicating with external sources like myself. At the time I speculated that they had one hit, and they were ramping up activity to get another, whilst insuring the integrity of the study by keeping any new data strictly under wraps.
Also, of interest in the article are the comments made about the whole 10 percent issue. Dr Parnia appears to have created a part of the questionnaire that picks up subconscious recollections from the resuscitation:
“For instance, in some cases people who appear unconscious are given names of cities and objects,” he says. “When they have recovered they have been asked to recall any memories. Even though they have no recall, when asked to ‘randomly’ think of cities, those who had been exposed to the stimuli are statistically more likely to choose the same cities compared to control subjects. Thus indicating they had heard it.”
Aside from the rather bizarre thought of nurses and doctors randomly shouting “Mogadishu” between “charge the paddles” and “clear”, this could provide some very interesting insights into whether the fact only 10 percent recall an NDE is memory related or otherwise, the topic of the previous post(s).
While this is very important, I am hoping that the announcement will relate to verified OBEs.
Dr Parnia, you have us all on tenterhooks!
Link to article: AOL article on NDEs
AwareofAware 
Dear Ben, I have a question about whether there is any legal impediment for Parnia to anticipate its results in 6 months. There is, perhaps, no exclusivity for the medical journals that perform the peer review. It is a concern I have. Do you know anything about that ??
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The issue of presenting results prior to publication is not a deal breaker. Ideally, any “interim” results would be presented at a credible scientific congress. Sometimes, if the results could affect the share price of a company, then a press release will be issued prior to formal presentation. Presenting data prior to publication is standard practice in clinical research, especially in instances where the results could affect how patients are cared for.
In my current field, which is now cancer research (used to be HIV), we (the corporation I work for) will regularly present interim data at conventions from our studies. Then, once the study is properly completed, and all the planned analyses conducted, even if the results are now widely known, we will seek to publish in a major journal like NEJM or the Lancet if the results are of genuine interest. The publication will still get accepted because in this instance the data will be complete (sometimes slightly affecting the results), and there will be commentary, and it will have been thoroughly peer reviewed.
In this instance, should the AWARE II study have two or more verifiable hits, then it would be perfectly reasonable for Dr Parnia to present these results. If I were him, I would do it at a congress, to keep it within the scientific realm, and then let the press organically create the resulting hyperbole, rather than attempting to do it himself through an isolated press conference. In my view, this would enhance the credibility of the announcement and accompanying data. I think launching the book before the results were known from AWARE I was not best practice. However, to have pre-prepared a book in anticipation of AWARE II, and launch it after the results have been presented, would be smart.
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Just to add, where there is an issue, is when a researcher is scheduled to present data at a conference, or in a journal, and they discuss or leak the specific data or conclusions prior to this (with the exception of announcements that could effect stock price). This may result in the congress or publication dropping the presentation or paper, and thereby denying the author the stamp of credibility that they provide. However, saying there will be an announcement about the study is perfectly fine.
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Hi, Ben
Yes I saw this yesterday but I wasn’t sure of the authenticity of it, nor what he (Dr Parnia) might be going to tell us even if it is accurate. Isn’t it a bit premature to speculate ? We all hope he’s got a hit or two and he will get one sooner or later, that I have very little doubt about. My advice would be assume he hasn’t and then you’re not disappointed. Just my thoughts.
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I’m always an optimist Tim, and given this is a major US news outlet (albeit their social media stream), I doubt its made up. It’s also too specific. I’m inclined to think they have contacted Parnia, and he’s given them this tidbit. As to what the announcement is…I can’t but help speculate! I have been disappointed many times before, so water off a ducks back by now.
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Ben said >I’m always an optimist Tim, and given this is a major US news outlet (albeit their social media stream),
I think you’re probably right. I’d be surprised if it is a hit, I really do think it will take some time to get one… but who knows, he might have got lucky of course !
It could be a release of some secondary data associated with the implicit learning he mentioned too. We’ll just to wait. Oh to be a fly on the wall in Parnia’s office.
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Tim, he wasn’t exactly lucky in the first study, so maybe this time his luck will have changed, which would work out very well as the methodology is so much better. But yes, it is entirely possible that he is just going to present some sub-analysis on recalling cities but no images. I will remain hopeful though. If they have recruited 200 or more patients by now, then they should have had at least 2 verified hits by now.
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Hi and thank you for the insights.
I haven’t experienced NDE myself but served in the army with a great guy who died and came back (he had an allergy to iodine so he luckily died at the hospital during a medical procedure). He had a very long and detailed experience that he shared with close friends. I sent him a message recently, notified him about the AWARE study, thought that will be interesting to hear what he thought. He quite fast said that he will be “very surprised” if this research will provide real proofs. I of course asked him why and he explained that “the system” is based on a separation between the two realities (here and up there) so the system won’t let it leack out and will block the evidence because the principle of separation between the two world must be kept. He said it was hard to explain but they cannot let that happen. I told him that if so why would he remember everything, and he said he isn’t sure why he personally came back with the memory and the system might failed to delete his experience. According to his view the AWARE study results aren’t important and aren’t relevant to our lives here. We should simply live them and choose every moment to do the right thing and do no harm without expecting to earn a carrot or afraid to get punished if we do wrong. I know it sounds strange and I can hardly believe I’ve shared that but I felt that this is the place it wouldn’t consider weird. Thanks for listening. Shachar
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Thanks Shachar. It appears “the system” hasn’t worked so well thus far, as there have been thousands of leaks! However, there are some philosophical questions around the whole NDE, this world, and the next world that could mean there would be checks and balances to insure we don’t know too much.
Many NDEers report that we are here to learn, and prepare for the next life. Most religions seem to reflect this idea in one way or another. A part of learning is to be able to suppress our temporal desires in favour of spiritual development etc. If we know for sure that there is a next life, and our entry is dependent on good behaviour here, then the test is less effective.
All the same, I don’t wish to cause offence, but are you certain that the iodine didn’t do a bit of damage as well as producing an NDE?
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Parnia has a 2017 paper that shows there is no brain activity during cpr maybe you allready mentioned it Ben. You know if there was all this resusitation going on and no one reported anything….the Shermer crowd would have claimed they had conclusive evidence……but they still have no understanding that quantum mechanics killed a naive realism or materialim anyway. I also go to charcters like Kerry Packer who claimed he felt nothingess….well you felt something you should feel anything.
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Warning there is some really bad reporting on this . I dont mean the actual study I mean the media. Some start with death became scarier….tyey mention the rat torture study from Michigan and dont understand what Parnis research showed. These stories poped up in google news health minutes ago
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One said this means conscieniousness is in some cell physiology. Oh man is some of this reporting bad. You posted the good article. Wish everone else just repeated this one. Ktla had a neurologist on discussing how we treat mental problems. Either electric or chemical neurotranmitters are played with with drugs or electric shocks. Parnia has shown their is no intercellular activity so there is no sight or hearing even though all the brain cellsvare not dead. Yet he has confirmed something was seen or heard even though there can be no way that could have happened because there is no way sight or hearing could happen and that is before we get to things we really dont understand like memory and especially consciousness. So this is pretty amazing if he has more…then WOW
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Parnia is a serious clinical researcher, and has done a lot of work in the field of rescusitation, so his approach is thorough. I really like that he is attempting to systematically understand the issue of why so many don’t recall their NDEs. Most journalists (and bloggers!) thrive on hyberpole. I must admit, after I got so excited yesterday, I am suspecting that the announcement is less likely to be about results, otherwise he might have used the word results in the statement.
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I don’t think there will be some results soon, but i have hopes that we will know about something good the next months
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The truth is, we don’t know. However, if they have two or more verified hits, then I suspect they will reveal those results. We will know at some point in the next six months!
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Personally I don`t think the update will be about any `hits` at this stage. I think it will concern more the clinical aspect of consciousness being shown to continue after a patient has been declared dead and then revived.
This of course will not show that consciousness is non localized nor will it prove the materialism argument.
I could be totally wrong of course await the update with interest.
Best,
Paul
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I don t speak English. But recently video Interview CBS to Dr Sam Parnia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnoIf2NwaRY&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
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What say s video????
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he says everything we know from the first Aware study and the second shows that there is no cerebral lesion on the brain of experiencers .He said people see and describ what happend to them . he said counsciousness continue after clinical death. for me its he have 2 or more hits!
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Another optimist! He is being more and more assertive in his position that consciousness persists independently after death. I suspect he has something he is dying to share. However, it must be shared in a way that further enhances the scientific credibility of his research work. Last time he chose the American Heart Association conference (link below) to present his preliminary data, I wonder if he will be doing the same again. It is in 3 weeks time, but I can’t find a list of abstracts on the site. This may be too soon if he only recently got a hypothetical second hit, even as a late breaker, so he may choose another congress, maybe one involving emergency physicians, which is more his specialty.
http://ahascientificsessions.org/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwvabPBRD5ARIsAIwFXBnqqFdZZsolCq6yg65azLrOaYqn_-a-sbm6tBePr2TSZ_-8lLzALdIaAkvJEALw_wcB
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I cant view this in my country, do you have another link?
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this the independent article :http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/mind-works-after-death-consciousness-sam-parnia-nyu-langone-a8007101.html
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https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Fundamentals_of_Neuroscience/Hearing
This is why Ben . There is no brain activity that is meaningful communication as we know it maybe instantly. They are confusing cell death with function. Hearing cant happen Ben . The hits are confirmed period. You cant hear in this condition but some have . Hameroff used the hearing to argue for this
http://www.quantumconsciousness.org/
https://arxiv.org/abs/1508.05929
Click to access nagel_bat.pdf
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11910-017-0770-x
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David I agree. For all who come to this forum, and for many ER physicians like Dr Parnia, NDEs are a real phenomenon, period. However, even though we believe the physicians and nurses, and the experiencers, the fact is these hits are not scientifically confirmed until someone has seen something while in an OBE, that they could not have seen while on the gurney, and which is validated as part of an experiment…hence the tablet on a pole. Parnia knows this, I know this, as does anyone else.
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That would be a superhit then Ben. and you think he has it?
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These recent brain studies of the dead show there can be no brain function like the auditory system it debunks several explanations . It means those hearing hist occurred by no means we now understand . So thos e are hits. What Parnias brain work showed is the cells are not dead and the brain can work again but higher brain function should be gone immediately at CA and its clearly is not.
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I don’t “think” anything with regard to whether or not he has a “super hit”. I hope he has, but of course I do not know. What we know is this:
1. The AWARE II study was designed with a number of objectives, one of which was to verfiy whether or not the claims of OBEs are real. To do this they have special equipment involving some sort of tablet generating images pointing at the ceiling.
2. Most people who are sufficiently knowledgeable about NDEs believe they are real in as much as the conscious, or spirit, leaves the body, briefly observes the world, then heads off somewhere else, before being dragged back by the emergency room HCPs…often unwillingly. What Parnia says in the interview, and has said repeatedly over the years, along with other physicians and scientists (including in those links you provide), is that it is not possible for the brain to experience these things very shortly after the heart has stopped beating, therefore some other entity is experiencing it, and provided the brain is not damaged, or memory is not disrupted by drugs etc, then when this entity returns the memories are “uploaded” into the rebooted brain (of course, he does not say it like that, but he implies that is a possibile explanation).
3.If this is indeed what is happening, the fact that 2% of people have full blown NDEs, and the fact the study has been running a few years now, means there is a reasonable likelihood that there have been two or more verfied hits. (I have gone over the numbers required in previous posts).
If the latter is the case, then I would be surprised if he would wait until 2020 before sharring this incredibly important finding. That is why I hope we will hear some important news in the next six months.
But yes, the fact that he is mentioning another aspect of his analysis, the whole issue of how many recollect their NDEs, and factors effecting this, may mean that this is where he will be going with his announcement.
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Here is what Dr Parnia will speak about IMO
https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/researchers-say-theres-evidence-that-consciousness-continues-after-clinical-death/
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No way of knowing really is there, but it’s lots of fun speculating!
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Nobody knows really until we hear from the man himself. I still think it will show that when the heart stops consciousness continues ~ in whatever form.
People will read in to what they wish. I`m 50~50 and sitting on the fence.
For the pot … copy and paste. 15 seconds of adverts but see it though.
https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/researchers-say-theres-evidence-that-consciousness-continues-after-clinical-death/
Best,
Paul
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Sorry ~ it`s a link I put on before.
My bad. Paul
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In short, says something new Parnia in this CBS News interview of the video ?
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No, there’s nothing new per se, Eduardo. What he is saying is nevertheless remarkable. Consciousness, the “self” continues to exist when the brain is not functioning.
I think he needs to be very careful how he handles this not least for the sake of his own career being linked to headline’s like “Doctors prove the existence of ghosts !!”) but also because it’s going to ‘piss off’ (excuse the language) a great many people, not just scientists.
He’s got to come up with a way of presenting this so that it sounds reasonable. If it was me, I’d probably try to talk about a “subtle entity” but even that sounds a bit weird. Maybe just the plain “continuation of consciousness” like Pim Van Lommel has done. Don’t know, what do others think ?
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This video is interesting more from the way he says things rather than what he says…nothing new in terms of data. As you point out, Dr Parnia is stating clearly that the evidence suggests that for some people at least, the conscious, the self “the part that makes me Sam”, persists beyond death. He also mentions the Being of Light etc. He doesn’t at any point hide behind caveats such as “this could of course be some natural process that we do not yet understand”. He very clearly states his position from someone who fundamentally believes that NDEs are real, and that OBEs are real.
This is a subtle departure from some of his previous public statements. Of course I can’t remember all, but my impression is that historically his tone has been supportive of the idea of an independent cosnciousness, but he has allowed for other explanations. Now he is not.
This for me, along with other signals…news in the next six months, the uptick in activity last year etc, makes me feel that he has the evidence needed to properly, scientifically validate this position. If he didn’t, then he would run the risk of being shredded, as you say.
I also find it intersting that he has become quite focused on the whole ten percent issue. Maybe he has looked at this blog at some point, and realized that without more evidence on this aspect of NDEs, namely whether or not it is memory related, there will be a vacuum in which the likes of me will make all kinds of nightmarish suggestions!
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All good points, Ben
I was thinking the other day that maybe one of us (interested parties) could risk an email to him. He used to respond to mine but stopped (I don’t blame him 🙂 )
Do you not think he might favour you with a bit of info seeing as how your blog is something of a tribute to his work (kind of thing) ?
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Yea if this is real it’s definitely gonna piss off a lot of hard nuts. From purely objective view im not yet convinced they are real. But if hidden target verifications are independently documented by many teams, I wonder what people in 100 years will think of neuroscientists & the fundies today, purposely holding back the most important discovery for such a long time. I get angry whenever I think about this, wasting our time from knowing the truth and degenerating society with their “humans are lumbering robots with no free will” bullshit. I guess science really does advance one funeral at a time.
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Thank you very much for clarifying it. You have done,
in addition, an excellent reflection. Thank you!!!
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Thanks Ben!!
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Tim makes some good points. I want too expand Chad. A lot of Christian fundies are aligned with the Ayn Randers on this too. It seems there is not enough damnation for their liking.
Also do any of you remember a story from years ago. A nurse in one of the UK studies said there is no doubt about about the persistance of consciouness but she cryptically added. Its not in the way most think. I just surmised it maybe was more like reincarnation where consciousness lasts but a fade of memory and change of personality. But that was my surmise. The story only had that cryptic statement.
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People like to see what they want to see in NDEs. For some it is not all loving lights, beautiful scenery, and meeting your dead relatives. There are many examples of hellish type NDEs in the literature. When Christian fundies focus on this, they need to look at some research done that shows that there may be a higher chance of having a hellish NDE if you describe yourself as a Christian! I am a christian, so I’m hoping this isn’t the case.
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That’s amusing, Ben, I like your sense of humour ! Have you seen the case reported by Dr Dave Mochel to internist Scott Kolbaba (Physicians untold stories) ?
Mary (Mochel’s patient) was a nasty curmudgeon apparently, always complaining to the doctors about everything she possibly could. Nothing was ever right and when she flat-lined during an (attempted) operation on her ankle and was resuscitated, the doctors (Mochel in particular) expected to be blamed profusely !
It was just the opposite in fact. She had a verdical OBE/NDE describing the sequence of events in the operating room while she was flat-lined, had an encounter with her dead Grandmother and became a completely different person. One might have expected her to get a taste of something unpleasant (if that’s how it works 😉 …but no.
Thanks to Eduardo and Dave for the comments BTW.
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I am Jewish and I find that really facinatiing Ben . Especially since some fine Christians sent many of my relatives to multiple death camps. We just rediscovered some long lost realtives and found one was turned over by her Christian husband. I like to think he had a bad trip
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David, I am very keen to avoid getting into debates on specific religions, but will comment on your comment. Those people who called themselves Christian and did this were not fine Christians. As you know, Jesus was a Jew and came to save Jews first, and true Christians should always understand that the Jews were God’s chosen and beloved people, to understand the Bible any other way is a herecy. There is currently a lot of anti-semitism, and I vocally oppose this when I get the chance (I am a great fan of Melanie Phillips who writes on this a lot). There are a lot of people who call themselves christian, and yet pay lip service to the teachings of Jesus.
Getting back on topic, the weird thing about the hellish experiences is that apparently they do not correlate to how one behaved in this life necessarily, which seems strange at best, and unjust at worst. I need to dig deeper into that research, as there could have been some very ropey methodology, as is often the case with things sprouting up on IANDs.
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Ben, why do you say an unpleasant methodology that springs up in the IANDS ?? I wish to know.
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Chad, I really like what you say on the subject of the current censorship that exists in the scientific community. As I have said before, because I work in research, I write on this site under a pseudonym…Ben is not my real name, (but keep using it as I like it!). I know for a fact that many scientists who don’t tow the materialistic line do not progress, which is why I admire Sam Parnia so much. He is stepping out where others fear to tread.
My Ph.D. work was very focused on developing new drugs using nucleoside and amino acid technology. I developed a very deep understanding of the chemistry and biochemical processes of these essential molecules, and I came to the conclusion that not only was it impossible for DNA and its associated expression machinery to come into being through unguided natural processes, but that the information present in DNA was itself evidence of intelligence, and that to hold any other view was to deny the facts. However, if you espouse those views in the world I work in, you are looked at as though you need a labotomy.
I will be using my real name before long, but I started a new job recently, and wish to avoid any controversies denying me an income!
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If I may make a suggestion, Ben…stick with your pseudonym, there’s no harm in that at all. Just to reiterate, did you see a previous post of mine where I suggested that you might be favoured with a response from Parnia because of your blog theme ?
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Tim, I will definitely get in touch with Dr Parnia, but I am not hopeful of a response…another reason why I think they have something. However, in the event they do…any suggestions for questions?
I may stick to Ben for the forum, but I do have a second novel in the works, and at some point…probably about 50 years from now at the rate I am going, I will shamelessly plug it here…once only though.
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Ben said > “Tim, I will definitely get in touch with Dr Parnia, but I am not hopeful of a response…”
I understand, Ben. He probably receives numerous emails so even if you do send one, it might be behind dozens of others (who knows). So he might not see it anyway. I do think you have a legitimate right/reason to contact him though, as your blog is quite a popular outlet for discussion on the subject and it’s not as if it’s likely to do any harm is it.
Naturally, I think you will agree, it’s not going to be appropriate to ask him outright if anyone has seen the “targets,” 😉 But maybe something like…
1. Has it been possible to test the authenticity of out of body experiences reported after cardiac arrest ?
Or
2. Do you have any indication if the methodology for testing the claims of patients who report out of body experiences has been effective ?
Even those two questions might be too probing unfortunately. I think I would probably go for something like this.
“Is there anything at all you can tell me about the progress of your Aware Study which many of us with a keen interest in this phenomenon find truly fascinating.”
Whatever you feel comfortable with, Ben and if you don’t think it’s a good idea then please feel to ignore all of that anyway. As you say, it’s unlikely he’ll respond.
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I could always see how DNA RNA could form but we could never figure out how the information linked to and metabolism and did it so fast. Big problem there. Big .interesting on the bad trips. Maybe Karma…not issues with this life at all. Even Carl Sagan was impressed by the mysterious memories of some children that matched other peoples lives. Parnias is an MD . He will make plenty of money regradless. It would be sick if his resustation research was ignored because he tells everything he finds…that us my guess. He just doe not care what some self appointed skeptics say. Unlike you Ben they cant do anything to him. Anyway academia is getting pretty bad these days. Another low pay area and nasty. My wife is retiring and she will be free to speak out. In your case right decision
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“I could always see how DNA/RNA could form”…please enlighten the world, you’d probably get a nobel prize! Snarky remarks aside, my Ph.D. required an intimate knowledge of nucleoside and amino acid chemistry, and from my understanding there are no plausable theories as to how you would get a few homochiral molecules from a primoidal soup, let alone a chain of them, and then yes, as you say, information is another leap altogether.
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I know it’s an obvious point but the consistency Dr. Parnia has shown in his comments over the years is something I find striking and bold. In that underlying this consistency is a strong base of NDE features that have never gone away and point to something remarkable going on.
So, first-person narrative has deep value not only to the experiencers but also seems to be a clue to something undiscovered about reality. The only measuring instrument seems to be the mind. That’s new! Kind of reaffirms something important about me/us, moment to moment, but I’m unsure what. Deep though.
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I have written to Sam parnia several times but never received an answer
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Recently video What it say s?? https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154873604416366&id=137767151365
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On RT that us pretty interesting. I got back to the auditory pathway because of these hits. It not like when I was locked in during pneumonnia in childhood when I appeared non responsive but heard everything. I had bloodflow and brain function. These people were dead. There us no way complex pathways work. I mention this because dihonest sceptics try to conflate no brain function with altered but functioning brains all the time. The brain is not working period. Its cells have not died or at least enough of them so the Doctors can pull it off. Also he is at Langone. Named for a Home depot founder and devout Catholic so that might offer him some protection.
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Ben, I’m a longtime lurker and have always found your blog entries and comments very thought provoking. I’ve been interested in reading your book, but when I click on the link it’s only for sale by third parties on Amazon. Do you have an e-book version available? If that’s the case, would you mind posting the Amazon link?
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Hi Jamie,
I am about do a rewrite…it needs updating to account for AWARE II and also is not well written in places…I wouldn’t buy it at the moment! In the New Year I will put a new version on line at a fair price.
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Thanks for the info! I’ll look out for the new version next year.
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Parnia, if I did not translate badly, in one part the video says that in its investigation in some cases the conscience is separated from the body, which suggests that it may have collected and evidence.
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Yes he said consciousness and we can add memory and sone sort of perception exists without brain function. He said it no doubt matter of fact.
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Thanks David!!
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http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdfplus/10.1089/brain.2016.0471
More pointless rat torture. Another group that cant read or understand Parnia. We need to call this after death experience . Also this group declare neural correlates of consciousness . There are none its all speculation .
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I agree, David but they will never stop pursuing a brain based cause. Consciousness separate from the brain is anathema to them. I don’t think it’s too ridiculous to envisage some academics being physically sick if Parnia gets the evidence (and I fully believe he will… sooner or later)
They’ve invested decades into their careers, indeed their carers are indivisible from who they believe they are effectively. Many (not all of course) books and papers, years of work, will have to thrown away or revised. It wouldn’t surprise me to see various science institutions declaring Parnia a charlatan and accuse him of trying destroy 400 years of progress since Descartes.
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I should complain to the animal use committee. Unfortunatly rats are not covered by the animal welfare act. Parnia blew this on away because the auditory hit occured 5 minutes post death and no activity in the poor rats. This paper is even worse and conflates with anathesia and anoxia. And they claim neural correlates of consciusness which no one has ever found because they do not seem to exist. Very few physicists grasp how quantum mechanics destroyed realism. The same sceptic crowd does not grasp that at all. The rssponse is shut up and calculate so I bet they just try to ignore it.
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I do not know if I already mentioned it but on the occasion of the study of the University of Michigan by the scientist Borgijin in 2013 about rats I remember that I read that Sam Parnia, leader of the AWARE project, affirmed that comparing the brain activity of rats and humans is precipitate and lacking of evidence. He argued Parnía at that time that: “Some people who have risen say they have heard and heard events that occurred tens of minutes after their hearts stopped, and before returning them to life .. In Borjigin’s experiment the electrical activity of the rats only lasts 30 seconds. Now I can not find the link but I’m sure I read it.
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People can correctly remember what happened to them minutes after brain activity has flatlined and CPR has started, said Parnia once .. This implies that if they see resuscitation maneuvers it is because they have almost certainly passed more than 3 minutes from cardiac arrest. In 2013 the IANDS noted that a major flaw is that the researchers at the University of Michigan discount or ignore the Total Power of the electrical activity in the waking rat, where there is a clear awareness, compared to the power Reduced to a large extent from the electrical activity after cardiac arrest. The total power of the electrical activity in the conscious waking rat is more than 30 times greater than after a cardiac arrest (so to speak).
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https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11910-017-0770-x
Right Eduardo. They proved Parnias point ! And dont seem to know it. Heres is Parnias 2017 paper that shows there is no brain activity as we know it.
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Yes, the whole 30 seconds thing is very telling. NDEs have been reported to go on for much longer than that in many instances.
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https://www.healthline.com/health-news/we-may-still-be-conscious-after-we-die#3
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More news I should have said
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Consciousness is separate entity . He declares proven. I think he is right. This is about the cpr study. I think the results are frome Aware 1 though. Or is this aware 2?
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The link is to Aware 1 but later goes into the brain activity monitoring of 2017 I linked to. The articles seem to focus on the brain cells not being dead but this one gets that those cells cant communicate and even the brain stem is inactive and cpr cannot do the job the heart needs to resart. What I find most interesting is his strong statement that consciusness is existing without the brain. I dont think he was so unequivocal after Aware 1. Am I right? I have a hunch he has a stunner though tge one in aware 1 convinced me and Stuart Hameroff for that matter.
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I think that it is also important what he says (if I did not translate wrongly): “We went into this (referring to the investigation of cardiac arrests) hoping that there is no consciousness of conscience, because our scientific models are based on the fact that You can only be aware when your brain is working, so if your brain is going through death and it does not work, then you should not have any of these experiences, “he said. “[Science also says] these supposed experiences probably do not happen when people are really dead, they’re probably happening sooner or later.”
He said his investigation showed that both are incorrect.
On the other hand, we must take into account that Aware I collects cases of cardiac arrests of four years (they are cases of stoppages from September 2008 to December 2012). I suppose that at present, for almost 5 more years, some other information will be in hand. And it is noted to speak confidently and categorically in the notes and reports that were made in recent times
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In his book, Parnia says something like he does not know if patients go to see the objective markers, given that he assumes that at the time of re-fusing they will be more focused on seeing their own inert body and how they work with it. In any case, accept the challenge of demonstrating it.
Nevertheless, in the NDE literature there are cases of true perception that demonstrate the non-material nature of these experiences. For example the case of sports shoes, the case of the 25-cent coin, etc. etc…
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I would say expecting no consciousness rather that hoping but otherwise that seems to be what he is saying
https://aeon.co/essays/how-economists-rode-maths-to-become-our-era-s-astrologers
Compared to economics ADEs are predicable and proven. I linked this to show people misunderstand science a lot. Al lot of scientists think they know something about epistemology and scientific methods . Well they dont . I will make it clear . Good science comes from continued and repeated observation. Parnia does it very well and that is why the attacks are getting dumber. Economics does it poorly
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Hm, I wouldnt draw conclusions just yet. While a lot of people would like this to be true, even If just for that issue to be settled already, it seems to me to be *very* speculative.
Maybe the announcement is simply on the topic of which hospitals or method of testing the OBE-aspect is being used?
One should never get his hopes up for no reason other than, well, wishful thinking (Im very hesitant to use the latter term and I mean no offense by it, but I think it could be applied here). Otherwise one might be dissappointed and let down when the actual thing comes around.
Best regards nonetheless,
Jonas
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Parnia allready has confirmed hearing 5 minutes after death. It happened no doubt confirmed. We cant conclude what would happen later but there was no brain function and yet the patient heard and recalled the events. I am not jumping to any conclusion except there is no way to explain it because the auditory pathway cannot be working in any way we now understand it. Nothing wishful this was in aware 1 paper and I have linked the other papers that confirm the auditory pathway would not be active. Since you mean no offense I mean no offense when I suggest you read the papers
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I’m hyped now. Looking forward to it. I think we are one step closer to cracking the riddle of consciousness.
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How would this solve the riddle of consciousness..? It would only add one more problem to the physicalists account of consciousness, making it even far less probable, but we would still not know what consciousness really is just because one option as an answer falls away.
Also, maybe you shouldnt get hyped because of this. As Ben stated, this is merely a wild speculation on his part, not the confirmed situation of what AWARE II has brought forth.
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Well…hmmm you got a point. It would make it more complex if the consciousness truly exists on some quantum level. We do not understand quantum physics all that well so add consciousness in the mix and it would be harder to code.
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I am basing my statements on Aware1 and Parnis 2017 paper and his statements we can assume he found nothing to refute aware1. I am not optimistic on understanding consciusness soon but New Scientist had an interesting story on on how to probe for it in other species . It sort of followed Nagles feeling approach. All vertebrates seem to feel pain and some mollusks. Most insects seem to have nothing more than a stimulus reaction. It was a cover story last year. Many people confuse it with self awareness which is a different phenom. That seems limited to Apes Dolphins and Elephants. And some humans. And maybe one if my cats who did get spooked by the mirror test. Speaking of spooked one of the terror victims just read a book on ADEs. After the science a little superstition. Just knocked on wood for good luck.
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David does bring up some interesting points. The thing is what is called “the brain” may not be the brain at all. It is nothing more then a physical communication device that the real brain the true you is using to communicate. I am excited to more blog posts in the future. This is getting very interesting.
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The three big questions: the origin of the Universe, the Origin of Life and the nature of consciousness. I absolutely believe that our brains are just receivers for the conscious, NDEs and OBEs support this belief.
Quantum mechanics may help us understand a bit more about how the conscious works, but like the other big questions, it will not tell us how the conscious was formed.
I wonder how many people on here who believe in NDEs also believe in God. I might have to figure out how to do a poll, because it would be an interesting question.
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Thanks. I like using after death experience ADE. There is some weird ND stuff as well but it occurs where there is heart brain function. I am more conservative than Parnia. I would say we have proven conscius awareness occurs some time after death by some mechanism we have some hypothesis about mostly Quantum Consciousness. Think of Brain as Old fashioned tv the signal remains even if the set is destroyed . Fix the set and you can sometimes get the signal . On the God question maybe its more Buddist like just part of universe or what lies behind it like our ancient nature religions. I just throw out some ideas. I had hooed for progress on origin of life but its been stuck at the metabolism info deadlock for a good 20 years or more. I thought we might get to know the fate of universe but no dark matter and energy and maybe overly simplistic general relativity models have left us in the dark here too. Technolocgical advance has disappointed me too but Clan meat and contrapest and interstellar nanoprobes have me excited . In medicine Parnias work and dna repair.
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David, the reason that the origin of life question has got stuck is because there is really only one answer. We know an awful lot about DNA and how it is translated and it is scientifically reasonable to conclude that it is impossible for the DNA system to have come into being through natural means. This combined with the fact that DNA itself is pure information, is evidence to support the belief that intelligence played a role in the initiation of life. In turn this supports the idea of a “God”, or universal intelligence, something which is also supported by NDE accounts. I’m not convinced this is consistent with Buddhist teaching, but at the same time I’m not sure it matters a huge amount.
The link below give a reasonable description of the problem around the origin of DNA:
http://www.orsonwrites.com/origins_of_life_4.html
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I’ve read that nowadays a lot of people think that buddhism is a religion which is the most consistent with modern science. But I think that probably christianity also could be reconciled with scientific ideas.
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Buddhism is the religion that is most consistent with atheist science, but I do not believe that science supports atheism as a belief. If anything, the fact the universe had a beginning, the origin of life puzzle points towards an intelligent initiator, and that the conscious is a seperate, unique entity, all support some of the middle Eastern religions.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/samparniamdphd
Just updates on twitter although more administrative related
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Well that means this post was indeed a wee bit premature. Will put a new post. disappointing.
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I like what you wrote, Ben. But sometimes I wonder how to be scienstist and believe in personal God, avoiding creationism or approach called “inteligent design” which supports idea of “God of the gaps”. As I know, creationism and inteligent design aren’t correct and consistent with science.
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As a Ph.D. chemist myself, who worked with nucleosides and amino acids, I have absolutely no doubt at all that it is scientifically and statistically impossible for life, and specifically the DNA code, to have come into existence by natural random processes.
This isn’t God of the gaps, we know a lot about DNA etc, the simple fact is that there is plausible theory as to how information got into chemical systems, let alone evidence to support any such theory. Add to this the fact that all other codes have only ever been generated by intelligent beings, and you have evidence (not proof) that DNA was the result of intelligence.
Given that no sciences disproves (or proves) God’s existance, both positions are based on personal beliefs. There is good science to challenge aspects of Biblical creation, but with regard to the origin of life, there is more evidence to support that a superior intelligence was behind life, than not.
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Yes, I agree. But when we don’t read and understand Bible literally, in my opinion its teaching doesn’t have to be contradictory to the theory of evolution. As I know, the evolution is a mixture of necessity and case, but I think that the case could also be used by superior intelligence to create the world.
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Sometimes I wonder also what I should think about reincarnation and previous lives. I’m a Christian, I rather don’t believe in reincarnation.
But I’ve heard about children who knew some facts from lives of other people and felt like they were those people in previous live. And sometimes people who had got NDEs, said that they knew from their experience that reincarnation is true. But for me reincarnation isn’t a real afterlife and continuation of consiousness because after death and in the “new life on Earth” we forget all things from previous life so for me it isn’t really continuation of our “self”.
But maybe are we all connected in world beyond the space and time so we could feel everything what another person felt during his/her earthly life?
I’ve heard that during a review of life in some NDEs people could feel the same what felt a person who for example was hurting by them.
I don’t know English very well, I continue to learn it but I hope that you understand what I mean.
Best regards 🙂
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